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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1236453 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 9:25:04 UTC

As we didn't have enough irritation with the antics of the Argentinians over the Falklands, now we have the Spanish getting skittish again over Gibraltar. Bearing in mind that they are just about to follow Greece in defaulting on debts, and being slung out of the Euro, you would think that they might have better things to do with their time.

Spain-Gib

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Message 1236480 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 11:44:34 UTC - in response to Message 1236453.

Chris, perhaps Greece and Spain are going for a combination deal -- Greece to revisit WW II reparations from Germany to pay off its debts and Spain to demand what it will call back rent on Gilbralter.

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Message 1236511 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 13:51:25 UTC - in response to Message 1236480.

Chris, perhaps Greece and Spain are going for a combination deal -- Greece to revisit WW II reparations from Germany to pay off its debts and Spain to demand what it will call back rent on Gilbralter.

Or Spain is following the example of Argentina in creating a nationalistic diversion to distract from it's own internal woes.

A good question is... Could we retake Gibraltar if it were to be invaded?

Could we defend it in the first place?


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Message 1236518 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 14:10:07 UTC - in response to Message 1236511.

Or agree with Spain regarding self-determination -- not sure what the Basques and Catalans would do as independent countries though.

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Message 1236530 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 14:34:38 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2012, 14:35:21 UTC

I posted the history of Gibraltar some time ago but basically, an Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. If you look at the political history of it all there was much goings one between France and Spain and other countries at the time.

But the fact remains that the Gibraltarians voted in referendums in 1967 and again in 2002 to remain British. The position of the British Government remains the same, that whilst the Gibraltarians wish to remain British they will stay so. Lets face it, would you want to be under Spanish rule at the present time?

Of course Spain has the same problem as France, in that they can't control their itinerant fishermen. But the Spanish Government is quite happy to sit back and see the British toes nipped now and again, even if it doesn't officially condone it. King Carlos and Queen Sophia are good friends of the UK Monarchy which helps to smooth things along.

I've been to Gib three times in the last 15 years, and I absolutely love the place. A little bit of England in the sun. Many of the big British High Street names are there such as Marks & Spencer, Morrison's Superstore, BHS, Mothercare, Evans, and Dorothy Perkins, amongst others. Plus of course British pubs serving British beer.

When there you just try to forget the heathens across the other side of the runway that still enjoy throwing live goats out of bell towers, stampeding frightened animals through the streets, and torturing bulls to death, all for public amusement. They've got about as much chance of getting Gibraltar back as I have jumping over the moon.



A good question is... Could we retake Gibraltar if it were to be invaded?
Could we defend it in the first place?


That situation would never arise Martin, no way would Spain ever consider starting to trundle military vehicles over the border, it just wouldn't happen. They would be knee deep in SAS before they had a chance to switch their engines off. Both sides are committed to a political solution, which at the moment remains an impasse.

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Message 1236532 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 14:45:40 UTC

Chris, it seems the most 'English' places are pretty far from England. I've never been to Gilbralter - but I have been to two very 'English' places -- Victoria, BC and Christchurch, NZ. They both seemed more 'English' than the various places I have been to in the UK. I mean I know London has long been far less than 'English' -- but heck, even places like Oxford, Cambridge, Bath and Canterbury seemed less English than Victoria or Christchurch -- though I will give them (and London) credit for offering excellent cider in pubs (something I really like).

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Message 1236535 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 14:54:30 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2012, 14:56:25 UTC

Hiyah Barry,

You do raise an interesting point actually, in that the Brits abroad are more British than at home in the UK! I've seen it first hand in Gib, and also on the Spanish Costa Del Sol which has many ex pat communities. Gotta keep the old flag flying you know :-)

In London English is fast becoming an ethnic minority language. We had an Empire and Lost it. We had a Commonwealth and gave most of it away. So we are now going back to square one and Plan C, and forming British outposts everywhere. The Grand plan is to conquer the world again in 2032.

More warm beer please waiter!

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Message 1236559 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 15:41:32 UTC - in response to Message 1236535.

Chris, I don't do warm beer, but I thrive on cold cider.

As to the Empire, if the English locals had known how to cook properly (especially curries) they would never have had to create an empire.

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Message 1236686 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 19:40:30 UTC

they would never have had to create an empire.


It originated with the overseas colonies and trading posts established by England in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. At its height, it was the largest empire in history and, for over a century, was the foremost global power. By 1922 the British Empire held sway over about 458 million people, one-fifth of the world's population at the time, and covered more than 33,700,000 kmĀ² (13,012,000 sq mi), almost a quarter of the Earth's total land area. As a result, its political, linguistic and cultural legacy is widespread.


Its peak was between 1800 and 1900, the Victorian era, even the Romans didn't compete with that. And yes, I think a British influence did bring a good environment to the world. These days now that we have taken a back seat so to speak, the world has gone to pot.

BUT, we ain't letting go of Gibraltar or the Falklands, they are non negotiable. And if any little tinpot 3rd world country wants to say different, then they are going to get a rude awakening, both politically and militarily.



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Message 1236714 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 20:13:04 UTC - in response to Message 1236686.

Chris, I'm certainly a fan of Churchill in his time and place. I also agree that the Falklands and Gilbraltar are not decisions up to external parties.

Then again, at the end of WW II much of Europe's government was established 'externally'.

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Message 1236742 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 21:07:37 UTC

Barry, you are right about Churchill, and also you could add in Thatcher as well. They were both charismatic leaders, but of their era as you suggest. Churchill certainly played a big part in helping us to win WWII, and we wouldn't have got the Falklands back if it hadn't been for Maggie.

After WWII, military leaders tended to rule in peacetime. General De Gaulle in France, and General Franco in Spain for example.





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Message 1236744 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 21:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 1236742.

Chris, Franco ruled before WW II, and Mussolini would have as well if he had managed to keep out of WW II. Heck, Churchill *liked* Mussolini until he attacked France in June 1940.

Franco stayed in power (and Salazar in Portugal I believe) because they stayed out of WW II.

DeGaulle got power in France because he left France in 1940 and partnered up with Churchill (though DeGaulle would never admit that). After WW II, that DeGaulle wasn't a communist insured that he'd get UK and US support (even if the US REALLY didn't like him). For all that, DeGaulle was a lot less of a General than a political figure. Now, DeClerc -- he was a French General.

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Message 1238273 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 22:15:00 UTC

Spain snubs Queen

Doing what the Argies have done, use an external issue to hide their internal woes.....

..as both nations are of Spanish hertiage, think we need a modern Sir Francis Drake to head off the "modern" Spanish armadas.....
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Message 1238457 - Posted: 28 May 2012, 12:09:46 UTC

Your take on the film is about the same as the critics here Mark. Great character play by Streep but too much emphasis on the dementia angle. It was meant to be more of a documentary than an entertaining film.

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Message 1238575 - Posted: 28 May 2012, 18:49:44 UTC - in response to Message 1238457.

Chris, well after all, the producer and director might have been playing to the current government. If they presented the full range of Thatcherdom instead of her current mental state, they probably would have had to include some of the less favorable aspects of her policy and behaviour while in power. Instead they were able to gloss those over.

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Message 1238629 - Posted: 28 May 2012, 20:43:35 UTC

You would be about right Barry. A lot of people think she deserved better.

Message boards : Politics : Gilbraltar

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