Construction technics over time and 12000 miles apart.


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Message 1242704 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 9:53:34 UTC - in response to Message 1242699.

Probably the building methods of the ancients were more costly in term of human lives, also from slave labor. Just as an example, the Cupola of the Duomo di Firenze was built by Filippo Brunelleschi without any scaffolding, which would be impossible today because of safety norms.
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Message 1242887 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 17:04:13 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jun 2012, 17:05:36 UTC

Guys,
Some really good discussion going on here. But i would like to add a few points;

Yes, as several people pointed out, you don't need alien technology to build any of the ancient monuments. We can, just about, explain HOW they built monuments like the pyramids.

But here is the point that most people are missing;

It should NOT be questionable HOW and WHY these monuments were built!! This point is critical!!!

Lets use William Rothamel's example of the Golden Gate bridge.
Nobody today goes around arguing about how or why they built the Golden Gate bridge. We know exactly how they built it, and we know exactly why they built the Golden Gate bridge. Its a marvel of modern construction, and amazing to see. But its form, its construction and its function are so glaringly obvious that nobody is debating it, or discussing it. Its a bridge to get from point A to point B, simple!.

So when we look back at ancient human history, if you believe mainstream archaeology, these people were "less advanced" than us. So whatever they built, pyramids, tombs, palaces or whatever, their form, construction and function should also be glaringly obvious. There should be no debate what-so-ever about anything they were doing. If they were "less advanced" than us, then EVERYTHING they built should be really easy to explain.

But this is not the case!! In almost every ancient site in the world, in every country in the world, there are VERY SERIOUS DISCREPANCIES in the mainstream view of what these people were doing and how they built these massive monuments.

John.
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Message 1243171 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 3:51:05 UTC - in response to Message 1242887.
Last modified: 8 Jun 2012, 4:15:55 UTC

And what was the purpose of the Apollo project? To bring back some rocks from the Moon? No, its purpose was that of uniting the American people, to give them a common goal to be achieved. So this was the purpose of the builders of the great Pyramids, to unite the Egyptian people. This is the thesis of the German physicist Kurt Mendelssohn in his book "The rise and fall of German science".
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Message 1243291 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 13:47:59 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jun 2012, 14:04:29 UTC

Tullio,
Your missing the point.

In every country in the world:
When we excavate sites from 7,000 years ago, they are DIFFICULT to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 6,000 years ago, they are DIFFICULT to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 5,000 years ago, they are DIFFICULT to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 4,000 years ago, they are DIFFICULT to interpret!

You could almost draw a time line in world history where everything changed! That time line is roughly 4,000 years ago!

In every country in the world:
When we excavate sites from 3,000 years ago, they are EASY to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 2,000 years ago, they are EASY to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 1,000 years ago, they are EASY to interpret!
When we excavate sites from 500 years ago, they are EASY to interpret!

Something was going on here on earth, in countries all over the world, before 4,000 years ago, and the buildings and structures we find on these sites are very unusual and their function is DIFFICULT to explain.

But when we excavate sites in every country in the world after about 4,000 years ago, the sites and the buildings are easy to interpret.

Something was going on here on earth before 4,000 years ago, and we don't know what they were doing! And i might also add, this is not just my personal interpretation. The vast majority of archaeologists would agree with that statement. Many archaeological books describe this change in world history that happened about 4,000 years ago.

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Message 1243296 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 14:08:04 UTC - in response to Message 1243291.

There's logically going to be a point in any civilization's history where recorded history and historical facts are minimal at best. That certainly doesn't suggest anything in particular happened except that people starting writing stuff down the best they could (on whatever medium they could find).

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Message 1243302 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 14:25:07 UTC - in response to Message 1243291.

In the Island of Crete we have written record starting in the third millennium before Christ (linear A) and they don't mention anything catastrophic. The only catastrophe was the volcano eruption in the island Thera/Santorini (1450 b.c) which generated a tsunami destroying the Crete fleet. So Crete was conquered by the Mycenaean coming from mainland Greece and that was the end of the Minoan civilization, one of the most splendid in the whole history of mankind. In the Thera island the town of Akrotiri, buried by the ashes like Pompeii is being excavated and shows all the riches of that civilization, which was peaceful.
Tullio.

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Message 1243424 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 18:06:07 UTC

You could almost draw a time line in world history where everything changed! That time line is roughly 4,000 years ago!


The King James Bible says 4004 BC.

(I refuse to use BCE just to pacify minority religions)

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Message 1243594 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 1:32:58 UTC - in response to Message 1243424.


The King James Bible says 4004 BC.

(I refuse to use BCE just to pacify minority religions)

I will always use BC too Chris. BCE and CE are used to appease the atheists who want to kill off God.

Well this is what i say;

God bless all! And thank God we can come here and have these interesting discussions! God is good!

John.
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Message 1244159 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 22:47:02 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jun 2012, 22:47:58 UTC

The problem with some of the human race is if they can't explain an event by
natural means they then explain away the occurrence as happening through
supernatural means with out any hard evidence in support.
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Message 1244188 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 23:49:08 UTC

When you have a crane and a back hoe, moving and fitting big stones looks like a job for a crane and back hoe. When you have a block and tackle and 10,000 slaves, moving and fitting big stones looks like a job for a block and tackle and 10,000 slaves.

Modern man no longer looks at jobs the same way as was done some thousands of years ago as he has different tools now. Occasionally though those tools don't work for a given job and he has to relearn the old tools.

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Message 1244431 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 17:51:07 UTC
Last modified: 10 Jun 2012, 17:51:33 UTC

The largest Ba'albek Terrace stone is estimated to be 1000 tons, and there are other smaller ones at 750-1000 tons. There is another nearby at 1200 tons.

The largest crane in the world the PTC III was built 5 years ago and can only lift 1600 tons, and requires transporting in 88 standard shipping containers prior to erection upon site. Just read the specs,

PTC III

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Message 1244509 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 22:00:18 UTC - in response to Message 1244431.

The largest Ba'albek Terrace stone is estimated to be 1000 tons, and there are other smaller ones at 750-1000 tons. There is another nearby at 1200 tons.

The largest crane in the world the PTC III was built 5 years ago and can only lift 1600 tons, and requires transporting in 88 standard shipping containers prior to erection upon site. Just read the specs,

PTC III

All fine and good. However, there are other ways...

Note for a 'modern move', there's the example of "The 2,638 tonne (2,596 short ton) building was moved three city blocks and is the heaviest recorded building move done on wheels".

Given a few hundred slaves, a strong dose of religion, and a few logs, moving a thousand tons is doable.


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1244972 - Posted: 12 Jun 2012, 8:30:34 UTC

Given a few hundred slaves, a strong dose of religion, and a few logs, moving a thousand tons is doable.

Wasn't there a TV program where they tried that with A frames?

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Message 1245127 - Posted: 12 Jun 2012, 22:23:14 UTC - in response to Message 1244431.
Last modified: 12 Jun 2012, 22:24:41 UTC

The largest Ba'albek Terrace stone is estimated to be 1000 tons, and there are other smaller ones at 750-1000 tons. There is another nearby at 1200 tons.

The largest crane in the world the PTC III was built 5 years ago and can only lift 1600 tons, and requires transporting in 88 standard shipping containers prior to erection upon site. Just read the specs,

PTC III

Chris and Martin,
Chris's point there is critical! Chris pointed out one of the heaviest lifting capacity cranes in the world. Now you cannot underestimate just how large that modern crane is. It takes several weeks just to move all the parts of that crane into position and assemble all the parts into one giant crane. It might take about a month to assemble one of those cranes.



So yes, we could move the Ba'albek monolith today with one of our cranes, but its very close to the limit of what we can move.

So people who write off our ancient ancestors as being primitive aren't scientists at all. If you write off the whole of ancient human history by saying "There is no proof", then your really just proving how un-scientific you are.

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Message 1245336 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 12:29:40 UTC - in response to Message 1244972.

Given a few hundred slaves, a strong dose of religion, and a few logs, moving a thousand tons is doable.

Wasn't there a TV program where they tried that with A frames?

Quite possibly. However, would be that one of those "Reality TV" type programs to show how difficult things are or how incompetent the participants are?...

A-frames are fine up to whatever the A-frame can support. For the heavier/bigger stuff, more robust methods use levers and cribs to incrementally jack/lift up whatever hundreds of tons. Rollers, rails, sledges and winches can then be used to move the things.

Or just organise lots of human grunt with multiple ropes and/or lifting poles.


Do not underestimate time and ingenuity...

Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1245480 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 18:16:13 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2012, 18:18:21 UTC

Well it has pretty much been worked out out they built Stonehenge or the Gate of the Sun.

    1. First you dig a hole the size of one of the upright stones, and just as deep, then you cut a slight incline into it. Imagine a section through a jug-kettle.

    2. Next you get a team of horses or oxen, maybe some men, to drag a stone to the edge of the hole, then you upend it with levers and tip it down.

    3. You do the same with another hole and another upright a few feet away.

    4. Then you drag the Lintel stone over the top of the other two stones, so that it rests there.

    5. Lastly you excavate the site to base level to leave the stones openly standing there. Of course it might make sense to leave the uprights a couple of feet in the ground to give stability.


The whole point being, you didn't have to lift hundreds of tons up in the air, which they couldn't have done anyway.

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Message 1245505 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 19:21:01 UTC - in response to Message 1245480.
Last modified: 13 Jun 2012, 19:23:11 UTC

Well it has pretty much been worked out out they built Stonehenge or the Gate of the Sun.
    1. First you dig a hole the size of one of the upright stones, and just as deep, then you cut a slight incline into it. Imagine a section through a jug-kettle.

    2. Next you get a team of horses or oxen, maybe some men, to drag a stone to the edge of the hole, then you upend it with levers and tip it down.

    3. You do the same with another hole and another upright a few feet away.

    4. Then you drag the Lintel stone over the top of the other two stones, so that it rests there.

    5. Lastly you excavate the site to base level to leave the stones openly standing there. Of course it might make sense to leave the uprights a couple of feet in the ground to give stability.


The whole point being, you didn't have to lift hundreds of tons up in the air, which they couldn't have done anyway.


Have you a reference showing the evidence for that actually having been done for both those sites?

An interesting idea but there's also the easy possibility of just using the levers and log cribs method to raise the stones and lintels (see earlier in this thread). Much quicker than grand earth moving.


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1245543 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 20:53:33 UTC

Have you a reference showing the evidence for that actually having been done for both those sites?

Not offhand, but I'll look for you as I read it somewhere.

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Message 1245572 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 21:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 1245543.

Why did they pick the hardest way to move such large stones on a regular basis. Labor was cheap but conscripted with food and houseing for workers slaves were used but paid workers do a better job. Pride in craftsmanship has to be the answer but this type of massive monuments started basically all over the world at almost the same time frame.
But theres a catch there too, the Spinx on the Giza plateau is now thought now to be about 9000 years old back to when Sahara was wet with frequent rains the lower body has clear water erosion on it only caused by rain over time. This kinda rewrites the history books, who built this monument it is thought back to when Egypt was ruled by a black ruler that the sphinx was modeled after has all black features. This is thought to be the oldest ruler of egypt. This would make the sphix twice as old as the pyamids. The same construction doesnt match other builders techniques they are not as ornate but rather plain.One temple is 80 feet deeper than the surrounding area. And the whole temple and the sphix were buried till 17th century when the sphix was uncovered.Only the head of the sphix was out of the sand.

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Message 1245580 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 21:50:55 UTC - in response to Message 1245572.

A thought to ponder for all these monuments where are the plans none exist why not it would be somewhere in stone how they did it. There has to be a scribe that wrote down sizes for stone needed here and there cut to this size or what ever. Somehow someway there has to be some written plans. The mystery not one set of plans for any of the ancient monuments exists. There is no way a complex construction like this could be donne without complex instructions from designers and craftsmen to build anything like this. That continues until roman times before plans exist for construction. This goes for Mayas aztecs The plans themselves would be a work of art and would be stored somewhere.

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