Construction technics over time and 12000 miles apart.

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Message 1244159 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 22:47:02 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jun 2012, 22:47:58 UTC

The problem with some of the human race is if they can't explain an event by
natural means they then explain away the occurrence as happening through
supernatural means with out any hard evidence in support.
The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1244188 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 23:49:08 UTC

When you have a crane and a back hoe, moving and fitting big stones looks like a job for a crane and back hoe. When you have a block and tackle and 10,000 slaves, moving and fitting big stones looks like a job for a block and tackle and 10,000 slaves.

Modern man no longer looks at jobs the same way as was done some thousands of years ago as he has different tools now. Occasionally though those tools don't work for a given job and he has to relearn the old tools.

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Message 1244509 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 22:00:18 UTC - in response to Message 1244431.  

The largest Ba'albek Terrace stone is estimated to be 1000 tons, and there are other smaller ones at 750-1000 tons. There is another nearby at 1200 tons.

The largest crane in the world the PTC III was built 5 years ago and can only lift 1600 tons, and requires transporting in 88 standard shipping containers prior to erection upon site. Just read the specs,

PTC III

All fine and good. However, there are other ways...

Note for a 'modern move', there's the example of "The 2,638 tonne (2,596 short ton) building was moved three city blocks and is the heaviest recorded building move done on wheels".

Given a few hundred slaves, a strong dose of religion, and a few logs, moving a thousand tons is doable.


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1245127 - Posted: 12 Jun 2012, 22:23:14 UTC - in response to Message 1244431.  
Last modified: 12 Jun 2012, 22:24:41 UTC

The largest Ba'albek Terrace stone is estimated to be 1000 tons, and there are other smaller ones at 750-1000 tons. There is another nearby at 1200 tons.

The largest crane in the world the PTC III was built 5 years ago and can only lift 1600 tons, and requires transporting in 88 standard shipping containers prior to erection upon site. Just read the specs,

PTC III

Chris and Martin,
Chris's point there is critical! Chris pointed out one of the heaviest lifting capacity cranes in the world. Now you cannot underestimate just how large that modern crane is. It takes several weeks just to move all the parts of that crane into position and assemble all the parts into one giant crane. It might take about a month to assemble one of those cranes.



So yes, we could move the Ba'albek monolith today with one of our cranes, but its very close to the limit of what we can move.

So people who write off our ancient ancestors as being primitive aren't scientists at all. If you write off the whole of ancient human history by saying "There is no proof", then your really just proving how un-scientific you are.

John.
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Message 1245336 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 12:29:40 UTC - in response to Message 1244972.  

Given a few hundred slaves, a strong dose of religion, and a few logs, moving a thousand tons is doable.

Wasn't there a TV program where they tried that with A frames?

Quite possibly. However, would be that one of those "Reality TV" type programs to show how difficult things are or how incompetent the participants are?...

A-frames are fine up to whatever the A-frame can support. For the heavier/bigger stuff, more robust methods use levers and cribs to incrementally jack/lift up whatever hundreds of tons. Rollers, rails, sledges and winches can then be used to move the things.

Or just organise lots of human grunt with multiple ropes and/or lifting poles.


Do not underestimate time and ingenuity...

Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1245505 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 19:21:01 UTC - in response to Message 1245480.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2012, 19:23:11 UTC

Well it has pretty much been worked out out they built Stonehenge or the Gate of the Sun.
    1. First you dig a hole the size of one of the upright stones, and just as deep, then you cut a slight incline into it. Imagine a section through a jug-kettle.

    2. Next you get a team of horses or oxen, maybe some men, to drag a stone to the edge of the hole, then you upend it with levers and tip it down.

    3. You do the same with another hole and another upright a few feet away.

    4. Then you drag the Lintel stone over the top of the other two stones, so that it rests there.

    5. Lastly you excavate the site to base level to leave the stones openly standing there. Of course it might make sense to leave the uprights a couple of feet in the ground to give stability.


The whole point being, you didn't have to lift hundreds of tons up in the air, which they couldn't have done anyway.


Have you a reference showing the evidence for that actually having been done for both those sites?

An interesting idea but there's also the easy possibility of just using the levers and log cribs method to raise the stones and lintels (see earlier in this thread). Much quicker than grand earth moving.


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1245572 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 21:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 1245543.  

Why did they pick the hardest way to move such large stones on a regular basis. Labor was cheap but conscripted with food and houseing for workers slaves were used but paid workers do a better job. Pride in craftsmanship has to be the answer but this type of massive monuments started basically all over the world at almost the same time frame.
But theres a catch there too, the Spinx on the Giza plateau is now thought now to be about 9000 years old back to when Sahara was wet with frequent rains the lower body has clear water erosion on it only caused by rain over time. This kinda rewrites the history books, who built this monument it is thought back to when Egypt was ruled by a black ruler that the sphinx was modeled after has all black features. This is thought to be the oldest ruler of egypt. This would make the sphix twice as old as the pyamids. The same construction doesnt match other builders techniques they are not as ornate but rather plain.One temple is 80 feet deeper than the surrounding area. And the whole temple and the sphix were buried till 17th century when the sphix was uncovered.Only the head of the sphix was out of the sand.
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Message 1245580 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 21:50:55 UTC - in response to Message 1245572.  

A thought to ponder for all these monuments where are the plans none exist why not it would be somewhere in stone how they did it. There has to be a scribe that wrote down sizes for stone needed here and there cut to this size or what ever. Somehow someway there has to be some written plans. The mystery not one set of plans for any of the ancient monuments exists. There is no way a complex construction like this could be donne without complex instructions from designers and craftsmen to build anything like this. That continues until roman times before plans exist for construction. This goes for Mayas aztecs The plans themselves would be a work of art and would be stored somewhere.
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Message 1245604 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 22:37:13 UTC - in response to Message 1245580.  

The plans themselves would be a work of art and would be stored somewhere.

Modern man might think that, but I suspect in the case of tombs at least the plans were ordered destroyed. Harder to loot them if you don't know were to look.

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Message 1245885 - Posted: 14 Jun 2012, 13:34:02 UTC - in response to Message 1245839.  

Plans of the LOCATION were indeed destroyed to protect the tombs. Plans of the CONSTRUCTION have yet to be found.


Safe to assume they were also destroyed?
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Message 1245934 - Posted: 14 Jun 2012, 15:42:52 UTC - in response to Message 1245839.  
Last modified: 14 Jun 2012, 15:46:08 UTC

Plans of the LOCATION were indeed destroyed to protect the tombs. Plans of the CONSTRUCTION have yet to be found.


Maybe they already have excavated the construction plans. Maybe the construction plans are in plain view of everybody but they think they are something else! Maybe the construction plans don't look like the typical Egyptian writings. Or maybe the people interpreting the hieroglyphs are reading them wrong.

You could say, hidden, but in plain view of millions of people.

Thats the best hint i could ever give you guys.

John.
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Message 1245938 - Posted: 14 Jun 2012, 15:55:52 UTC - in response to Message 1245839.  

Plans of the LOCATION were indeed destroyed to protect the tombs. Plans of the CONSTRUCTION have yet to be found.


The location of the secret room with all the treasure, I think that is the construction plan.

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Message 1247329 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 8:34:23 UTC

It's way more amazing to me that both Newton and Leibniz concurrently and independent of each other created calculus. I'm not, however, proposing an alien influence.

It's more that as man's knowledge of the world increases certain skills can arise more or less identically and yet independent of outside influence.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1247352 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 9:35:45 UTC - in response to Message 1247329.  
Last modified: 17 Jun 2012, 9:37:09 UTC

Archimedes and Eudoxus essentially had the idea of calculus some 400 years before Christ. They used "the method of exhaustion". Archimedes was one of the greatest minds ever and Eudoxus was a student of Plato. Now we are re-inventing Calculus by using the Hyper Reals.
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Message 1247364 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 10:21:52 UTC - in response to Message 1247352.  

Archimedes and Eudoxus essentially had the idea of calculus some 400 years before Christ. They used "the method of exhaustion". Archimedes was one of the greatest minds ever and Eudoxus was a student of Plato. Now we are re-inventing Calculus by using the Hyper Reals.

Do you mean complex numbers? They were invented by Girolamo Cardano in 1545, as described by Roger Penrose in his book "Shadows of the mind", page 249 and following.
Tullio
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Message 1247864 - Posted: 18 Jun 2012, 10:04:39 UTC - in response to Message 1247364.  
Last modified: 18 Jun 2012, 10:13:09 UTC

Tullio

No not the complex numbers which have been added to number theory some time ago. The Hyper Reals are infinitesimals that are greater than zero but smaller than any real number and their compliments which are larger than any real number. Sounds like fantasy but so does Cantor's ordering of infinities by matching one to one correspondences.

Just as complex numbers and imaginary numbers are real enough for us electrical engineers so are the hyper reals in being able to prove all theorems in calculus more easily than by using limits. Since I can see this utility I am suspending my intuitive beliefs and learning all i can about them.

My hope is that they will lead me to an explanation of the Planck limit and of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and possibly give some insight to quantum mechanics. I don't pretend to have the intellect to unravel the mysteries here but perhaps there might be some possible hints at why ordinary math can't seem work in Physics at the very small and very large scales.

I always felt queasy about dividing by delta x and then throwing away the square of delta x in calculus by using limits.
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Message 1247915 - Posted: 18 Jun 2012, 14:11:39 UTC - in response to Message 1247874.  
Last modified: 18 Jun 2012, 14:16:37 UTC

Way over my head :-(


That's the funny part, you come to learn teaching this stuff to mature age students with learning difficulties. It isn't over your head, just was never explained to you properly.

That particular formula represents an instantanious rate of change.. i.e. slope, which you use everyday without thinking about it even to set things upright.

It's part of the modern introductory calculus tutorials that students typically follow over a 3 to 6 month period, which is approximately the same rate that Newton & Leibniz are credited with forming this 'new' way of handling infinite precision in abstract maths ... otherwise known as functions of the real world.

jason
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Message 1247916 - Posted: 18 Jun 2012, 14:39:56 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jun 2012, 14:40:55 UTC

I've always liked more algebra than infinitesimal calculus. You have the feeling that you are dealing with solid objects, like bricks or LEGO pieces. So I did my thesis in theoretical physics using group theory and Lie algebras. I liked it a lot.
Tullio
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Message 1248507 - Posted: 20 Jun 2012, 0:52:15 UTC - in response to Message 1248314.  
Last modified: 20 Jun 2012, 0:53:42 UTC

You are maybe right Jason, but I was actually quite good at formulas and Algebra at school. To this day I still cant get the hang of differentiation, but I find it all fascinating stuff nevertheless. If only I was cleverer...

I'm sure you're clever enough... It's just merely a case of perspective... ;-)

A beautiful example from 'many' years ago is:

Zeno's paradoxes

Zeno's paradoxes are a set of philosophical problems generally thought to have been devised by Greek philosopher Zeno of Elea (ca. 490 - 430 BC)...

Can you disentangle his paradoxes for Achilles and the tortoise, and that of an arrow in flight? You should find the view that is the paradox and why the paradox isn't a paradox in reality "of interest"... (A beer and a local pub might help.)

"Calculus" is then a very small step from there (if you realise the pun ;-) ) that spans a few thousand years!


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1249672 - Posted: 21 Jun 2012, 22:49:24 UTC - in response to Message 1248877.  

Oh I iz quite clever believe me. The tortoise and the bus paradoxes are paradoxes, simply because theory does not predict what happens in practice.

A man running will eventually catch up with the tortoise and pass it. If a bus is stationary, than a man walking or running will eventually be able to get on it. However people can use maths to prove that it couldn't happen "in theory". So what use are these paradoxes to anyone? Nothing, they are just intellectual exercises for the sake of it. ...

Not at all. That is just an unthinking fob-off...

Now try thinking again.

There is great insight to be gained in why the paradox is a paradox and how the paradox works. Seeing why that particular paradox is a paradox, and what extra detail is needed to unravel that, is very significant for understanding your reality.

There is also a magic key in there for appreciating calculus. All with very real-world application.

Try looking again? What is the key premise that artificially makes the paradox the paradox it is?


Keep searchin',
Martin

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