Construction technics over time and 12000 miles apart.

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Message 1234625 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 18:17:24 UTC - in response to Message 1234541.  

... researching my Greek ancestors...


Nicely done and good giggle as ever :-)


Cheers,
Martin


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Message 1234706 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 20:32:38 UTC

Hey! We're still 'smart'...

But we do posses this inordinate ability today to make the simplest
of things very hard to achieve. Clearly our ancestors did not have this
trait so were able to make the difficultest of things very easy to achieve.


The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1236083 - Posted: 24 May 2012, 20:34:55 UTC - in response to Message 1234338.  

The anthera device is fasinating for its sheer elegance a watchmaker would enjoy, its only 7000 years old. The fine gearing 46 gears i belive are finely done by hand or were they? Anyone who has ever had to do gear ratios would appreciate this achivement. Another thing we take for granted is the parthenon this specticular building its engineering is baffling.
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Message 1236678 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 19:17:05 UTC - in response to Message 1236083.  
Last modified: 25 May 2012, 19:21:34 UTC

7000 years old ????

Or 2000 +/- ?

And in answer to a previous post of yours,Machu Pichu is in the middle of a rain forest,
and was found when the trees were cut away.
On the pictures you see of it,you very rarely see the jungle which surrounds it,but when you
stand on Machu Pichu ,all you see around you are trees.

john3760

edit. and I think you will find it was a complete ruin when they found it,and has been " rebuilt"
a little bit since then ,but only a few of the buildings have been re- roofed.
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Message 1236692 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 19:52:17 UTC
Last modified: 25 May 2012, 19:52:46 UTC

I have seen how the stones could have been made so perfectly. It is a fit, and re-fit operation. They use rocks or what ever tools were at hand, and pound down a flat surface, leaving the dust where it is. Then when they think it is flat, they put the next block on top, which has already been worked flat on the bottom. Then they pick it up, and see where the dust either mounds up, or is pushed away. Then a second or third round of hammering out the unevenness, and everything fits perfectly. When you have thousands of laborors, and no deadline by the end of the day, all kinds of things can be accomplished.

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Message 1236699 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 20:00:09 UTC

It is a fit, and re-fit operation. They use rocks or what ever tools were at hand, and pound down a flat surface, leaving the dust where it is. Then when they think it is flat, they put the next block on top, which has already been worked flat on the bottom. Then they pick it up, and see where the dust either mounds up, or is pushed away. Then a second or third round of hammering out the unevenness, and everything fits perfectly


That sounds very much to me like the procedure done by precision mechanical engineers, using engineers blue, to scrape two surfaces to mate. As an apprentice toolmaker I did it manty times. The point is that if the metal pieces were small enough you could "spot grind" the pair of them and not waste time! A bit difficult with large stones!

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Message 1236706 - Posted: 25 May 2012, 20:07:26 UTC

It is difficult with big heavy stones, but works the same way. I'm not sure how long it took them to do each stone, but the instructions seemed to be as long as it takes until it is right. Then on to the next one.

It's interesting the same tequniques are still being used today. When something works, it works!

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Message 1237601 - Posted: 26 May 2012, 21:47:02 UTC - in response to Message 1236699.  
Last modified: 26 May 2012, 21:56:39 UTC

It is a fit, and re-fit operation. They use rocks or what ever tools were at hand, and pound down a flat surface, leaving the dust where it is. Then when they think it is flat, they put the next block on top, which has already been worked flat on the bottom. Then they pick it up, and see where the dust either mounds up, or is pushed away. Then a second or third round of hammering out the unevenness, and everything fits perfectly


That sounds very much to me like the procedure done by precision mechanical engineers, using engineers blue, to scrape two surfaces to mate. As an apprentice toolmaker I did it manty times. The point is that if the metal pieces were small enough you could "spot grind" the pair of them and not waste time! A bit difficult with large stones!


Wow Chris. I worked for a machine building company many years back. Reading Steve's post made me think of exactly that. The blue and the waxy brown stuff. Rub the two parts together, and hand scrape the high spots that get died blue.

And, In our shop, this scraping was done by hand, for LARGE machinery. Typically we used a crane or two to "rub" the two mating surfaces together. Ive seen a disk over 12ft in diameter hand scraped flat, took two guys about two weeks. They also did it with weigh surfaces, sometimes as much as 80FT long.(about 27 meters)

Some of the parts we worked on were upwards of 100,000 pounds.

When the scraping is done properly, there is LESS than .0005" variance.

For reference, this is the typical size machinery being worked on at that company..

-Dave #2

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Message 1237737 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 2:10:43 UTC - in response to Message 1236083.  

this specticular building its engineering is baffling.


We have an exact copy of the Parthenon right here in Nashville. No sweat at all, it was built for the Centennial of Tennessee in 1897. They don't call Nashville the "Athens of the South" for nothing

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Message 1237744 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 2:22:57 UTC - in response to Message 1237737.  

We have an exact copy of the Parthenon right here in Nashville. No sweat at all, it was built for the Centennial of Tennessee in 1897. They don't call Nashville the "Athens of the South" for nothing


That's something they never tell you when they say "wow, how did they do that"

Thanks for that tidbit, it's something I did not know.

-Dave #2

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Message 1237949 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 10:57:41 UTC

Hi Xclusive,

Wow Chris. I worked for a machine building company many years back. Reading Steve's post made me think of exactly that. The blue and the waxy brown stuff. Rub the two parts together, and hand scrape the high spots that get died blue.

When the scraping is done properly, there is LESS than .0005" variance.

Thanks for the post, and the picture. Yep 1/2 a thou or a few tenths sounds about right. Most lathe and machine tool beds are hand scraped. A lot of scraping is also done for a decorative finish as well. I can still remember as an apprentice the time at College, when the teacher was demonstrating the use of optical flats and Moiré fringes to test for flat surfaces. Some idiot student (not me) decided to wring two optical flats together to see the result! After the teachers reaction the air was definitely Engineers Blue !!!

The good old days :-)

For our friends over the pond ...

Both the "marking out" blue, and the "scraping blue" may be referred to as engineer's blue, which can lead to substantial confusion. In the US, the terms machinist's blue, scraping blue, or simply bluing are used instead of engineer's blue.



Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx 1895-1977

I also have mine, and if you don't like them ... tough, live with it.
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Message 1237993 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 12:23:43 UTC - in response to Message 1236692.  

Ahoy, shipmates!

This discussion brought two things in mind. Firstly:


And as SciManStev described:

Then they pick it up, and see where the dust either mounds up, or is pushed away.

    Isn't this what the present time dentists do, too? They fill a hole, put some sort of colour indication paper there and tell you to bite a few times. Then they look in and drill away extra stuff.


Regards

PK

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Message 1238263 - Posted: 27 May 2012, 21:57:03 UTC - in response to Message 1237737.  

The parthenon is what 3000 years old alot of fine tuning went into that building with no plans that can be found. Some fine work there. Think it was 800 BC some fine minds existed at that time. That isnt the oldest greek construction but a fine example.
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Message 1241253 - Posted: 4 Jun 2012, 19:10:47 UTC - in response to Message 1236692.  

You to set a multi-ton stone it becomes impractical once the rock is set down and dont fit. The lentils on the rulers palace the dateway to the sun has 10 ton stones set perfectly at about 10 feet.. A lot of measureing and one set of the stone.
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Message 1241641 - Posted: 5 Jun 2012, 11:10:00 UTC

Do you mean Tiwanaku ?

Tiwanaku
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Message 1242401 - Posted: 6 Jun 2012, 18:49:48 UTC - in response to Message 1237949.  

The tomb in the Cheops pyramid its insides are .002 over 10 feet and cut from one piece of hard black granite. Amazing work for so many thousands of years ago, yet it was learned from somewhere even older engineers were teaching these techniques. Where did they learn this thats the mystery greeks were the same way somewhere they learned this technique long before.
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Message 1242407 - Posted: 6 Jun 2012, 19:06:08 UTC - in response to Message 1242401.  

Why did they have to learn it from a mysterious "somewhere" or "someone"? Why couldn't they have figured it out on their own? I think that you're selling our ancestors short if you think they were too primitive to figure it out.
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Message 1242675 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 8:02:34 UTC

Here is a thought for the day. We would have great difficulty constructing some of these stone edifices today even with 21st Century machinery, so how did they do it 2500 years ago? However today we can construct buildings like the Petronas Towers which they couldn't do in their time. So ergo, we have knowledge that they didn't and vice versa.

It is quite common today to bury plans of a building in a time capsule in the foundations somewhere, I wonder if modern x ray techniques could determine if the ancient builders did the same?
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Message 1242693 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 9:03:41 UTC - in response to Message 1242675.  

It's more likely that building knowledge was transferred orally, from master to disciple and so on, in the Cimabue-Giotto tradition. In Central and South America there was not even a written language. Egyptians used hieroglyph.
Tullio
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Message 1242699 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 9:23:55 UTC - in response to Message 1242675.  
Last modified: 7 Jun 2012, 9:28:59 UTC

We would have great difficulty constructing some of these stone edifices today even with 21st Century machinery,


This is a myth that needs to be dropped from folklore and mis-understanding. We would not have "great" difficulty at all. Any difficulty that we might have would be far less than those of the ancients.

The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco is testimony to our modern mathematics, physics, engineering and construction prowess. It is 75 years old.
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