2012 - real or not?


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Message 1233960 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 9:50:02 UTC

As far as i'm aware, the Mayan calender is the only "scientific" evidence that points to something happening on December 21, 2012.

All that is happening is that the current 13th Long Count or b'ak'tun will end, and a new 14th Long Count will begin.

the Long Count calendar identifies a day by counting the number of days passed since a mythical creation date that corresponds to August 11, 3114 BCE in the Gregorian calendar. The Long Count calendar was widely used on monuments.

13.0.0.0.0 August 11, 3114 BCE
1.0.0.0.0 November 13, 2720 BCE
2.0.0.0.0 February 16, 2325 BCE
3.0.0.0.0 May 21, 1931 BCE
4.0.0.0.0 August 23, 1537 BCE
5.0.0.0.0 November 26, 1143 BCE
6.0.0.0.0 February 28, 748 BCE
7.0.0.0.0 June 3, 354 BCE
8.0.0.0.0 September 5, 41 CE
9.0.0.0.0 December 9, 435
10.0.0.0.0 March 13, 830
11.0.0.0.0 June 15, 1224
12.0.0.0.0 September 18, 1618
13.0.0.0.0 December 21, 2012
14.0.0.0.0 March 26, 2407
15.0.0.0.0 June 28, 2801
16.0.0.0.0 October 1, 3195
17.0.0.0.0 January 3, 3590
18.0.0.0.0 April 7, 3984
19.0.0.0.0 July 11, 4378
1.0.0.0.0.0 October 13, 4772

Long Counts

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Message 1233963 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 9:52:52 UTC - in response to Message 1233803.

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

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Message 1233972 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 10:25:58 UTC - in response to Message 1233963.
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 10:52:52 UTC

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

I am only a Christian, not a Bible scholar. I only remember that the Qumran papyrus were in the possession of a Jewish group of scholars who did not want to leave them to be examined by other non-Jewish Bible scholars (our Cardinal Martini, former archbishop of Milan was and still is a Bible scholar). But I think they have been digitized and put on line, so any scholar can examine them.They have confirmed the texts of much later Bible editions, for all I know. Cheers.
Tullio
Edit The NYTimss of October 28 2011 says that Google is digitizing the scrolls and putting them at dss.collections.imj.org.il/.
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Message 1233973 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 10:26:41 UTC

Can't find anything about the French Priest.


Dead Sea Scrolls

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Message 1234000 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 11:46:59 UTC - in response to Message 1233960.

but why we pass from 13 to 1 in that :


13.0.0.0.0 August 11, 3114 BCE
1.0.0.0.0 November 13, 2720 BCE


and then now there are a 14,15,16,17,18,19 ? in :


13.0.0.0.0 December 21, 2012
14.0.0.0.0 March 26, 2407
15.0.0.0.0 June 28, 2801
16.0.0.0.0 October 1, 3195
17.0.0.0.0 January 3, 3590
18.0.0.0.0 April 7, 3984
19.0.0.0.0 July 11, 4378
1.0.0.0.0.0 October 13, 4772


the 14 to 19 didnt existed in that time ?
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Message 1234005 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 12:06:29 UTC - in response to Message 1233963.

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

Surprisingly, I believe the wording used in the books of the scrolls, was very close to the latin bible the current (non KJ) is translated from...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Message 1234021 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 12:35:42 UTC - in response to Message 1234005.

My source, the Bibbia Concordata, says that the Latin version of St.Jerome, IV century after Christ, called "Vulgata", was based on original Hebrew texts and not on the Greek version made in Alexandria of Egypt in the III and II century before Christ by 72 translators, and called therefore "Seventy".
Tullio

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Message 1234036 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 13:08:07 UTC - in response to Message 1234005.

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

Surprisingly, I believe the wording used in the books of the scrolls, was very close to the latin bible the current (non KJ) is translated from...

And there starts the very interesting story of "which bible"...

The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are a collection of scripture of the day and include writings and versions that are not included in what we have for our Christian bible today. Hence they are controversial for some religious authorities...

Note that St Paul (a Roman) pretty much completely excluded Jesus from his writings and his compilation of a bible. Jesus was added and made prominent later as the ideas of suffering and resurrection were developed and included.

Notable exclusions include the writings by other members of Jesus' family...

And then there is the meeting at Nicaea many years later to agree all the dogma!


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1234046 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 13:35:04 UTC - in response to Message 1234036.
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 13:35:52 UTC

Saint Paul was originally a Jew, like Christ. He eventually ended in Rome, which was the capital of an empire. Had he stayed in Palestine, the Christians would have ended like the Essenes. It was the Roman empire, with its road network and its culture, which caused the Christian faith to expand. I would advise anyone interested in the Jewish roots of Christendom to read a book by the Jewish author Robert Aron, Le annees obscures de Jesus, Paris 1960.I have an Italian edition but I don't know if it has been translated into English.
Tullio
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Message 1234129 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 17:45:59 UTC - in response to Message 1234036.

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

Surprisingly, I believe the wording used in the books of the scrolls, was very close to the latin bible the current (non KJ) is translated from...

And there starts the very interesting story of "which bible"...

The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are a collection of scripture of the day and include writings and versions that are not included in what we have for our Christian bible today. Hence they are controversial for some religious authorities...

Note that St Paul (a Roman) pretty much completely excluded Jesus from his writings and his compilation of a bible. Jesus was added and made prominent later as the ideas of suffering and resurrection were developed and included.

Notable exclusions include the writings by other members of Jesus' family...

And then there is the meeting at Nicaea many years later to agree all the dogma!


Keep searchin',
Martin

Someone mentioned the scrolls can or will be found online. How about English translations?

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Message 1234237 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 22:41:39 UTC
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 22:42:21 UTC

Tullio, ML1 and xclusive585,
You guys all seem to have excellent knowledge of the bible and religious stuff. I thought me and Chris S were the only ones here with an interest in biblical stuff. But its turning out that you guys actually seem to have some real quality knowledge of the bible. Maybe i should be asking you guys if i have questions.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to hear you guys chatting about religion without slating it all as non-sense. Its good!

John.
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Message 1234250 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 23:18:13 UTC

You know, 400 years ago mankind "KNEW" the earth was flat.
200 years ago, we "KNEW" the earth was the center of the known universe
Less than 60 years ago, we "KNEW" the entire universe was the Milky Way Galaxy.
Now take a look at what we know today, and you can't even "BEGIN" to imagine what we will know tomorrow. God-men? can't discount it. Just like the life-after-death discussions. Dark matter and dark enery just might be the "life-force" of the universe, and we (man-kind and other living organisms) might be the materialized or material form of that life-force that upon the "death" of the physical body we presently occupy, might be "returned" to that realm we refer to as dark matter and dark energy. Sounds far-fetched I know. But then, when whats-his-name said the sun was the center of the solar system a few hundred years ago, he was imprisoned for hearsay. So by all means, lock me up!

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Message 1234298 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 0:43:48 UTC - in response to Message 1234237.

Johnney, thanks. I am a Christian but also a theoretical physicist, like the late Nicola Cabibbo, who was unjustly robbed of a Nobel prize (the Cabibbo angle was a branching point in elementary particle physics). I am not a Bible scholar and I rather prefer reading the Gospels than the Torah, not being a Jew. But the Bible is a part of our western culture, no doubt.
Tullio
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Message 1234330 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 1:41:59 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 1:49:54 UTC

I'm atheist. But I am curious about the origins of religions, and keep an open mind. The Dead Sea Scrolls intrigue me because they are old texts and give a clue as to how much the current bible has been altered... (as I mentioned I believe my quick reading in the past told me that the books found both in the modern bible (KJV excluded..) and in the scrolls were surprisingly close...)

And it would be especially interesting to me, to read the books in the scrolls that do not exist in the modern Torah/Bible...
Hence my curiosity in accurate English translations..
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Message 1234343 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 1:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 1234330.

For all I know the scrolls are in Jerusalem. In Israel English is the second language and is taught in schools. Maybe they have already been translated but I have no idea if the translation is available. Giving the importance of the scrolls for the Jewish people I believe they are rather jealous of them.
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Message 1234363 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 3:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 1234343.

My first curiosity of the scrolls seemed to point to the fact that some were written as much as 150 years before the supposed time of Christ. These scrolls told of the "lawgiver" and matched many of the accounts in the bible which were written as late as a 150 years after Christ.

They were held for some time by a French Priest as I recall. Can anyone comment on or correct my recollections of the first info on the scrolls.

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Message 1234423 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 6:52:25 UTC - in response to Message 1234363.
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 7:43:51 UTC

My first curiosity of the scrolls seemed to point to the fact that some were written as much as 150 years before the supposed time of Christ. These scrolls told of the "lawgiver" and matched many of the accounts in the bible which were written as late as a 150 years after Christ.

They were held for some time by a French Priest as I recall. Can anyone comment on or correct my recollections of the first info on the scrolls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain some text of the Old Testament, not of the New Testament (the Gospels). The earliest text of the Gospel we have is that of the Ryland Papyrus, dated 125/130 after Christ. There is no connection between the two. I never heard of a French priest having the scrolls, maybe they are referring wrongly to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, SJ, who died in New York in 1955.
Tullio
Edit A copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls is being shown in an Exhibition in Rome, near St.Peter's Church, called Verbum Domini.
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Message 1234437 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 9:28:21 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 9:56:41 UTC

Big help for christian brothers:

Last sunday in japan they observed this very unusual clearly Mayan-2012-ish eclipse sign!!! so any christians who are very enthuisiastic about armageddon affairs can use this fresh terrifying eclipse sign to brain wash their local communities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfVMNZY2YQc

In japan just short period ago Fukushima happened and now this eclipse this must be a clear sign!!

--------------------

Well in asia mostly non christian culture dominates so nearly 2 billion people are very dumb and live happily without any armageddon scare craps.
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Message 1234460 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 11:27:29 UTC - in response to Message 1234437.

Big help for christian brothers:

Last sunday in japan they observed this very unusual clearly Mayan-2012-ish eclipse sign!!! ...

--------------------

Well in asia mostly non christian culture dominates so nearly 2 billion people are very dumb and live happily without any armageddon scare craps.

There is usually some sort of "stick and carrot" or "Hell-and-Damnation, and Heavenly peace" aspect to religions to enforce a 'good moral compass' upon the followers to try to live well. Often there's also aspects included to perpetuate the faith, for example "go forth and multiply"... All very much following the theories of Darwin for their continued existence! ;-)

Buddism has an alternate more gentle aspect of peer pressure moderation with the belief in reincarnation.

Islam as widely practiced seems to have a strange misogynist twist including a very strange Armageddon about a thousand (women) virgins. So what's in it for the women? Or is that all lost in the misogyny?...


And more abstractly yet down to Earth, we have Science...


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1234464 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 11:35:25 UTC - in response to Message 1234237.

... Maybe i should be asking you guys if i have questions.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to hear you guys chatting about religion without slating it all as non-sense. Its good!

Reasoned discussion is good, thanks.


I've just checked Wikipedia and the main article there gives a good if rather terse summary about the various bibles:

Bible

A bit you might be interested in is: Christian eschatology


And out of curiosity, something I'd like to see presented for the various Bibles is something similar to this cladogram as shown for Linux:

GNU/Linux Distribution Timeline

Anyone know of one for the Bibles?


Keep searchin',
Martin

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