2012 - real or not?

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Message 1234036 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 13:08:07 UTC - in response to Message 1234005.  

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

Surprisingly, I believe the wording used in the books of the scrolls, was very close to the latin bible the current (non KJ) is translated from...

And there starts the very interesting story of "which bible"...

The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are a collection of scripture of the day and include writings and versions that are not included in what we have for our Christian bible today. Hence they are controversial for some religious authorities...

Note that St Paul (a Roman) pretty much completely excluded Jesus from his writings and his compilation of a bible. Jesus was added and made prominent later as the ideas of suffering and resurrection were developed and included.

Notable exclusions include the writings by other members of Jesus' family...

And then there is the meeting at Nicaea many years later to agree all the dogma!


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1234046 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 13:35:04 UTC - in response to Message 1234036.  
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 13:35:52 UTC

Saint Paul was originally a Jew, like Christ. He eventually ended in Rome, which was the capital of an empire. Had he stayed in Palestine, the Christians would have ended like the Essenes. It was the Roman empire, with its road network and its culture, which caused the Christian faith to expand. I would advise anyone interested in the Jewish roots of Christendom to read a book by the Jewish author Robert Aron, Le annees obscures de Jesus, Paris 1960.I have an Italian edition but I don't know if it has been translated into English.
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Message 1234129 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 17:45:59 UTC - in response to Message 1234036.  

Thank you Tullio. Interesting. What do you know about the dead sea scrolls. Why were they kept secret by a French priest for a number of years.

Surprisingly, I believe the wording used in the books of the scrolls, was very close to the latin bible the current (non KJ) is translated from...

And there starts the very interesting story of "which bible"...

The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are a collection of scripture of the day and include writings and versions that are not included in what we have for our Christian bible today. Hence they are controversial for some religious authorities...

Note that St Paul (a Roman) pretty much completely excluded Jesus from his writings and his compilation of a bible. Jesus was added and made prominent later as the ideas of suffering and resurrection were developed and included.

Notable exclusions include the writings by other members of Jesus' family...

And then there is the meeting at Nicaea many years later to agree all the dogma!


Keep searchin',
Martin

Someone mentioned the scrolls can or will be found online. How about English translations?

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Message 1234237 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 22:41:39 UTC
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 22:42:21 UTC

Tullio, ML1 and xclusive585,
You guys all seem to have excellent knowledge of the bible and religious stuff. I thought me and Chris S were the only ones here with an interest in biblical stuff. But its turning out that you guys actually seem to have some real quality knowledge of the bible. Maybe i should be asking you guys if i have questions.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to hear you guys chatting about religion without slating it all as non-sense. Its good!

John.
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Message 1234250 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 23:18:13 UTC

You know, 400 years ago mankind "KNEW" the earth was flat.
200 years ago, we "KNEW" the earth was the center of the known universe
Less than 60 years ago, we "KNEW" the entire universe was the Milky Way Galaxy.
Now take a look at what we know today, and you can't even "BEGIN" to imagine what we will know tomorrow. God-men? can't discount it. Just like the life-after-death discussions. Dark matter and dark enery just might be the "life-force" of the universe, and we (man-kind and other living organisms) might be the materialized or material form of that life-force that upon the "death" of the physical body we presently occupy, might be "returned" to that realm we refer to as dark matter and dark energy. Sounds far-fetched I know. But then, when whats-his-name said the sun was the center of the solar system a few hundred years ago, he was imprisoned for hearsay. So by all means, lock me up!
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Message 1234298 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 0:43:48 UTC - in response to Message 1234237.  

Johnney, thanks. I am a Christian but also a theoretical physicist, like the late Nicola Cabibbo, who was unjustly robbed of a Nobel prize (the Cabibbo angle was a branching point in elementary particle physics). I am not a Bible scholar and I rather prefer reading the Gospels than the Torah, not being a Jew. But the Bible is a part of our western culture, no doubt.
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Message 1234330 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 1:41:59 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 1:49:54 UTC

I'm atheist. But I am curious about the origins of religions, and keep an open mind. The Dead Sea Scrolls intrigue me because they are old texts and give a clue as to how much the current bible has been altered... (as I mentioned I believe my quick reading in the past told me that the books found both in the modern bible (KJV excluded..) and in the scrolls were surprisingly close...)

And it would be especially interesting to me, to read the books in the scrolls that do not exist in the modern Torah/Bible...
Hence my curiosity in accurate English translations..
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Message 1234343 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 1:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 1234330.  

For all I know the scrolls are in Jerusalem. In Israel English is the second language and is taught in schools. Maybe they have already been translated but I have no idea if the translation is available. Giving the importance of the scrolls for the Jewish people I believe they are rather jealous of them.
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Message 1234363 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 3:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 1234343.  

My first curiosity of the scrolls seemed to point to the fact that some were written as much as 150 years before the supposed time of Christ. These scrolls told of the "lawgiver" and matched many of the accounts in the bible which were written as late as a 150 years after Christ.

They were held for some time by a French Priest as I recall. Can anyone comment on or correct my recollections of the first info on the scrolls.
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Message 1234423 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 6:52:25 UTC - in response to Message 1234363.  
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 7:43:51 UTC

My first curiosity of the scrolls seemed to point to the fact that some were written as much as 150 years before the supposed time of Christ. These scrolls told of the "lawgiver" and matched many of the accounts in the bible which were written as late as a 150 years after Christ.

They were held for some time by a French Priest as I recall. Can anyone comment on or correct my recollections of the first info on the scrolls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain some text of the Old Testament, not of the New Testament (the Gospels). The earliest text of the Gospel we have is that of the Ryland Papyrus, dated 125/130 after Christ. There is no connection between the two. I never heard of a French priest having the scrolls, maybe they are referring wrongly to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, SJ, who died in New York in 1955.
Tullio
Edit A copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls is being shown in an Exhibition in Rome, near St.Peter's Church, called Verbum Domini.
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Message 1234437 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 9:28:21 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 9:56:41 UTC

Big help for christian brothers:

Last sunday in japan they observed this very unusual clearly Mayan-2012-ish eclipse sign!!! so any christians who are very enthuisiastic about armageddon affairs can use this fresh terrifying eclipse sign to brain wash their local communities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfVMNZY2YQc

In japan just short period ago Fukushima happened and now this eclipse this must be a clear sign!!

--------------------

Well in asia mostly non christian culture dominates so nearly 2 billion people are very dumb and live happily without any armageddon scare craps.
Mandtugai!
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Message 1234460 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 11:27:29 UTC - in response to Message 1234437.  

Big help for christian brothers:

Last sunday in japan they observed this very unusual clearly Mayan-2012-ish eclipse sign!!! ...

--------------------

Well in asia mostly non christian culture dominates so nearly 2 billion people are very dumb and live happily without any armageddon scare craps.

There is usually some sort of "stick and carrot" or "Hell-and-Damnation, and Heavenly peace" aspect to religions to enforce a 'good moral compass' upon the followers to try to live well. Often there's also aspects included to perpetuate the faith, for example "go forth and multiply"... All very much following the theories of Darwin for their continued existence! ;-)

Buddism has an alternate more gentle aspect of peer pressure moderation with the belief in reincarnation.

Islam as widely practiced seems to have a strange misogynist twist including a very strange Armageddon about a thousand (women) virgins. So what's in it for the women? Or is that all lost in the misogyny?...


And more abstractly yet down to Earth, we have Science...


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1234464 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 11:35:25 UTC - in response to Message 1234237.  

... Maybe i should be asking you guys if i have questions.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to hear you guys chatting about religion without slating it all as non-sense. Its good!

Reasoned discussion is good, thanks.


I've just checked Wikipedia and the main article there gives a good if rather terse summary about the various bibles:

Bible

A bit you might be interested in is: Christian eschatology


And out of curiosity, something I'd like to see presented for the various Bibles is something similar to this cladogram as shown for Linux:

GNU/Linux Distribution Timeline

Anyone know of one for the Bibles?


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1234470 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 11:55:37 UTC - in response to Message 1234464.  
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 12:54:45 UTC


Anyone know of one for the Bibles?

Thanks God,no.
Tullio
But I can give you Dante,Milton, Michelangelo, Raffaello,Bach and hundreds of other writers, painters, sculptors,musicians,architects whose work has been centered on Bible inspired themes. Think only of Caravaggio and his two Conversion of St.Paul.
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Message 1234628 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 18:23:02 UTC - in response to Message 1234464.  

... Maybe i should be asking you guys if i have questions.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to hear you guys chatting about religion without slating it all as non-sense. Its good!

Reasoned discussion is good, thanks.


I've just checked Wikipedia and the main article there gives a good if rather terse summary about the various bibles:

Bible

A bit you might be interested in is: Christian eschatology


And out of curiosity, something I'd like to see presented for the various Bibles is something similar to this cladogram as shown for Linux:

GNU/Linux Distribution Timeline

Anyone know of one for the Bibles?


Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin,
That Christian eschatology link is good. I will have a good read through some of the stuff on that page, and the pages that link off it! Its good!

There is a Wikipedia page with a biblical chronology. Its a kind of timeline from the creation of Adam through all the Son's that begot Son's;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Bible

That biblical chronology is good, i have read that page a few times. Martin another thing i use a lot on Wikipedia is the little "menus" that are at the very bottom of some pages. On that page of Wikipedia as an example, it has a little menu at the bottom called "Chronology" with lots of associated topics. I find those little menus very useful, they are on the bottom of many Wikipedia pages.

John.
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Message 1234722 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 21:05:39 UTC - in response to Message 1234628.  
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 21:20:23 UTC

... There is a Wikipedia page with a biblical chronology. Its a kind of timeline from the creation of Adam through all the Son's that begot Son's;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Bible

That biblical chronology is good, ...

Yes, there is some very good material in Wikipedia.

The sort of timeline I'm more interested in is in how well the claimed Biblical accounts tie in with verifiable history and archeology. For example, there's some suggestive claims to dating what was described as Noah's flood to archeological evidence of floods in Iraq.

Another timeline of interest is for how the Bible itself came to be put together.

See:

Dating the Bible

and

Apocrypha Texts

for a start on those lines...


... And then there is "Why?" the Bible was put together in the way it has been... Rather curious as to how there is nothing contemporaneous and no corroboration for the central figure of Jesus... ;-)


Aside: Spanning many religions, there are some very powerful common "memes". The development of Christianity looks to follow various aspects of the Zoroastrianism from a few hundred years before... Add in a mix of ideas from Sumaria and Egypt (Amun, Ra, the later Amun-Ra, others?) and... All in the right sort of area... ;-)


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1234842 - Posted: 22 May 2012, 0:53:27 UTC

Martin,
There is no doubt, this biblical stuff is a very complex topic. Its riddled with holes and gaps in knowledge. And to top that off, if your trying to study this stuff as science research, its problematic because there is so much theological propaganda thrown in there that can confuse you. Its not clear cut by any means.

Martin i'm also curious about matching ancient biblical stories with real life archaeology that is scientifically verifiable. This branch of archaeology is known as Biblical archaeology; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology. The topic is very deep and takes months or years to research properly.

The modern Christian bible we have today is the work of what is known as the "Council of Nicaea" in 325AD; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Nicaea. Thats where they decided what books were going into the bible and what books were being left out.

Martin also keep in mind that Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

John.
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Message 1235078 - Posted: 22 May 2012, 15:06:09 UTC - in response to Message 1234842.  

... Martin i'm also curious about matching ancient biblical stories with real life archaeology that is scientifically verifiable. ...

So where do your Elohim come in on this?


Martin also keep in mind that Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah.


Who said anything about there being only 'one' Jesus?...

There's very good examples of how the Legends of such as Robin Hood (at least three real live people through the ages) and King Arthur (Camelot, and quite a mash-up of stories and legends) came together and grew and evolved into the mysticism we have today.


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1235161 - Posted: 22 May 2012, 21:57:33 UTC - in response to Message 1235078.  
Last modified: 22 May 2012, 22:02:40 UTC

.....So where do your Elohim come in on this?

Who said anything about there being only 'one' Jesus?...

Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin,
Your British, so the school and religious system you were taught through as a child will have taught you about someone called "God", same as they taught me here in Ireland as a child. You were taught about a book called the bible and the book is an English language text book. But that English language text book called the bible was NOT written in English, its original language was Hebrew.

In the Hebrew biblical texts, the original texts, there is no word "God". Its not in that book Martin!! Its a classic example of the true meaning of a word getting "lost in translation". In the Hebrew bible, and that is the original bible Martin, the people who created Adam and Eve were called "The Elohim". In the Hebrew bible, the Elohim are a race or tribe of people, many people. In the Hebrew bible, the central figure is a bloke called "Yahweh", pronounced "Yaa way".

So this is where "Lost in translation" really kicks in. In the English language bibles, and there are many different versions and revisions, both words, "Elohim" and "Yahweh" both get translated into one singular English word "God". Martin this has gone on for so long now, and so many western countries only know the word "God", that its almost impossible to change it at this stage. But religious scholars who study this stuff know this problem exists.

And i'm really only aware of one bloke called "Jesus". Many people claim to be Jesus, but thats a different story.

Links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

John.
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Message 1235726 - Posted: 24 May 2012, 7:26:36 UTC
Last modified: 24 May 2012, 7:35:19 UTC

Everyone,
Take 50 minutes of time out of your life and watch this BBC Documentary about Human cloning and the creation of life;

How to build a human; Creation (BBC Documentary - 2005) (50 minutes long)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTSHIF7Hiq8

That BBC Documentary is 7 years old, it was first broadcast in 2005. Many of the problems the scientists encountered back then in 2005 have since been solved!

Now ask yourself this question - If we can genetically manipulate human genes and literally "create" a human being, then is this what is described in the bible?

The bible says there was a race of people who came down from the sky and "created" human beings, Adam and Eve.

The question i ask is this - How could people thousands of years ago have guessed that might be possible? Was it a lucky guess? I don't think so. I think the bible is an accurate description of what happened 6,000 years ago.

If we can do it today, then this science has ALWAYS been possible!! Maybe its just a simple matter that today science is proving the bible was correct. Biblical things are happening all around you, you just have to open your eyes to see them. If your not keyed into the latest things that are going on in the world of genetic engineering, then your outside the loop. This stuff is biblical.

John.
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