Actual core speed discrepancy...or just my stupidity?

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Message 1223027 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 3:12:16 UTC
Last modified: 25 Apr 2012, 3:16:09 UTC

I had originally mentioned this a couple of weeks ago in a different thread, but thought it would more appropriate to move it to the number crunching thread.

Over the past few days I have been looking into the question of my actual core speed again. With my Core 2 Duo Extreme x9000 2.8 Ghz, CPU-Z keeps reading under the "clocks" section (bottom half of the first tab, CPU):

Core speed: 797.xx MHz
Multiplier: x4.0
Bus Speed: 199.xx
Rated FSB: 797.xx
(the xx values are dynamic and change by the moment)

Here is a link to a CPU-Z screen shot taken on a blog reviewing this same chip that I have: http://hothardware.com/image_popup.aspx?image=big_cpuz_stock.jpg&articleid=1165&t=a
As far as I can see, every single one of the values are the same with mine and the one in this screen shot, except; Core VID (mine is 0.925 V), Core speed, and multiplier. All of the specification values are exactly the same (stepping, model, family, revision, etc.)

I have also ran another 3 or 4 similar apps to CPU-Z and I am yet to see an affirmative reading of 2.8Ghz other than in the processor type field or estimated clock speed field.

With a program called Core Temp 1.0 RC3, under frequency it says 797.76 (99.72 x 8.0). I have ran torture test with prime95 with both CPU-Z and core temp running and there was no rise in the multiplier or the core speed.

I have seen the frequency as seen through the Core Temp 1.0 RC3 program change a few times when I open or close a program etc, but as it rose to well over 2800 mhz (as high as 16,000 mhz) for a split second, i figured that could not be right. either way, that only happened a couple of times and only for a split second.

Now i understand that Core speed is generally the Multiplier x bus speed, but would that be the 200 bus speed or 800 rated FSB? 4 x 800 = 3200 which is higher than the 2.8 it should be, and 4 x 200 = 800 which is lower than 2.8

So to conclude, i see approx 2800 mhz in certain boxes, but 797ish on most others, particularly the dynamic ones where the value changes by a little each second, so i figure that is the important one. Also, I am used to using CPU-z and I only downloaded all those other programs to see if they said something different, so I would like to understand this in terms of CPU-Z. When I look through windows-->control panel--->system , it shows the Core 2 duo x9000 2.8 GHz, and repeats 2.80 Ghz a second time which i took to mean it is actually utilizing the 2.80

This is probably an annoying post to read through so I apologize, and I am probably burning my eyeballs out on the screen for the past few nights over nothing, but I just want to make sure this computer is using its full capacity to crunch. If anybody can further clarify or suggest a foolproof way to see if these processors are really running at 2.8 Ghz I would appreciate.

As a side note, BIOS has no options for changing the multiplier, or even the speedstep tech. Apparently alienware didnt want us to actually be able to take advantage of the Extreme edition chips (in my understanding the whole point of the extreme edition was that you could manually edit the multiplier). Also, I installed windows 7 on this computer myself a few years ago, the computer came originally with XP and Alienware chose not to bother keeping up to date with windows 7 and discouraged us from upgrading our systems to windows 7, so I dunno if that is important or not.

This post turned out much much longer than I intended, again I apologize for that.[url][/url]
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Message 1223032 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 3:28:02 UTC - in response to Message 1223027.  


Roughly, Multiplier * Bus Speed= Core Speed.
So 199 * 4= 796MHz
199 * 14 = 2786MHz


What temperature is the CPU at while running at that speed? Poor cooling will result in serious downclocking so the CPU doesn't get cooked.

I'd check in your BOIS to make sure Bus Speed etc are set to automatic, or at the very least haven't been set manually to a fixed value.
I'd also check in your systems Power Options that the system hasn't be set to run in a low power mode.
Failing all of that check for BIOS updates for you motherboard to see if there are any there that specifically address your problem.
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Message 1223038 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 3:55:56 UTC - in response to Message 1223032.  

Thank you for your response.

Both cores are pretty steady at around 46-48 Celsius, at 24/7 100% use from BOINC. I crunch with both cores and GPU all the time, even when I'm using the computer, as I don't see much slowing of performance. I only suspend BOINC when I am doing something particularly CPU intensive.

I had already checked the power settings (i leave it on high performance and have edited the settings as I needed, min and max CPU usage is at 100% for when plugged in).

BIOS offers no options for my CPU at all, this alienware has actually the simplest BIOS i have ever seen, and I checked to see if there was an update for it earlier today but found none. I am not sure what kind of motherboard is in here, so I haven't checked for an update to that.

So basically my multiplier should be at 14, right?
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Message 1223039 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 3:59:48 UTC - in response to Message 1223038.  

By the way, I called Alienware about this last night and they were NO help at all. It seemed I was more knowledgable about computers than the tech support guy, and he offered no further assistance to get to the bottom of the problem. He basically left it at "I don't know" and "I can't access your computer's information since you bought it prior to the Dell takeover of alienware". Very unprofessional tech support every time I've called them.
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Message 1223046 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 4:23:53 UTC - in response to Message 1223038.  

Both cores are pretty steady at around 46-48 Celsius, at 24/7 100% use from BOINC.

So it's definately not running near it's full speed.
My C2D E8400 (2.4GHz) with stock everything generally runs in the high 50°s with the ambient temperature in the low 30°s, mid 30°s it runs around the low 60°s.


So basically my multiplier should be at 14, right?

Yep.
For that bus speed & the CPUs rated speed, the multiplier needs to be *14
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Message 1223051 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 4:32:32 UTC - in response to Message 1223046.  

damn. i wonder what caused it to be doing that. is this something you think i can fix myself or do i need to bring it to a pro somewhere?
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Message 1223058 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 4:44:49 UTC - in response to Message 1223051.  

damn. i wonder what caused it to be doing that. is this something you think i can fix myself or do i need to bring it to a pro somewhere?


You already stated that the power settings are set at high performace, so there is nothing else there...

But, may be there is some weird setting in the bios, something like a power/battery saving option or something in that line...
(it's a long shot, judging by your words, it seems that the BIOS allows you to set the date and time and not much more...)

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Message 1223060 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 4:51:19 UTC - in response to Message 1223058.  


Even the crappiest of BIOSes alow you to set the basic settings for the CPU.
Failing that, i'd shut it down, pull the mains power & see if you can find a BIOS reset switch or pins on the motherboard & reset the BIOS.
If not, there may be an option in the BIOS to reset it to default settings, if not then pull the CMOS battery out & let it set for a few minutes before putting the battery back in & re-connecting the mains power.
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Message 1223068 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:10:29 UTC - in response to Message 1223060.  

Thanks guys, I will give that a shot. I scheduled a call back for tomorrow morning from tech support with alienware just now. since my computer is past warranty they want to charge me if they are able to solve the problem tomorrow, but hopefully i will be able to do this without them before that. i feel embarrassed to have to pay anyone to fix a computer for me, its something i've never had to do before- i used to work for a company building alienware laptop clones (literally the same laptops as what i have, extreme edition chips and everything), and the fun part is we would spend the last hour of the day benchmarking the systems we built while playing Quake 3 so that we could provide a printout of the results with each individual computer, lol. i also had to do tech support 1 or 2 days a week for the systems I built, which was not so fun.

anyway, i wish the alienware BIOS wasn't so mysterious, and I've never encountered an issue like this before, and its been more than a few years since i was immersed in building/fixing computers every day of the week, so thanks again for your help. i will let you know what happens.
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Message 1223073 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:33:55 UTC - in response to Message 1223068.  
Last modified: 25 Apr 2012, 5:35:45 UTC

Ok interesting development...I downloaded and loaded up THROTTLESTOP. In CPU-Z the multiplier jumped to 8 instantly, and throttlestop also confirmed an 8 multiplier (1600mhz)(i hadnt even touched anything, just loaded up the program).

I went ahead and was able to check off a 14x multiplier with throttlestop and apply it and now it is running at 2.8 GHz.
also temperature climbed from the 47 i am used to seeing, to about 80.

as i was writing the message above the computer just turned off, and now that i'm booted back up, the multiplier is back to 4. apparently it was unstable at 14 lol. google chrome was able to restore the message i was in the middle of typing when the computer just turned off on me, pretty cool.

are any of you familiar with throttlestop? looks like a program for overclockers (i never OC'd my computer before, and am not looking to), but if i can use this to get back to normal speed that would be nice. perhaps i need to find the right settings through throttlestop, but do u know if i need to have throttlestop loaded all the time in order for any modifications i make, to stick? or can i set, apply, and close, and the settings will stay applied indefinitely...
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Message 1223075 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:41:34 UTC

i tried it again, as soon as i load up throttle stop it automatically pushes the multiplier to 8x (confirmed on CPU-Z and Core Temp 1.0 RC3) and temperature seems to be steady around 35-40 when CPU's are not fully used. running BOINC at 100% of CPU, temp is at 45-55, depending on which program i'm looking at.
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Message 1223076 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:42:21 UTC - in response to Message 1223073.  


As it's a BIOS setting once it's set it should stay that way- unless there is a problem.
As the system restarted when you had it set to the higher multiplier, it looks like there is a problem. I'd consider 80°c too high for that CPU, even on a laptop.
Can you hear the fan(s) building up speed as the temperature climbs? If not, the fan(s) may be the problem, otherwise it's a high probability that the cooling system is clogged with dust. Not unusual on laptops.
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Message 1223079 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:45:37 UTC - in response to Message 1223075.  

i tried it again, as soon as i load up throttle stop it automatically pushes the multiplier to 8x (confirmed on CPU-Z and Core Temp 1.0 RC3)

So that would be 1.6 GHz.
Try the muliplier at 10. See how hot it gets, see if it reboots or not. Then try 12.
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Message 1223083 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:52:21 UTC - in response to Message 1223079.  

i was able to answer my own question by reading the manual - once activated, these settings stay in effect until you reboot whether TS is open or not.

At 10x multiplier its running 80-90 degrees at 100% CPU use. i think thats near max temp no? i'm taking it back down to 8x for now. when i cleaned this system out a few weeks ago, the thermal paste was completely hardened, and this is a 4 year old system. perhaps i should apply some new arctic silver before running it above 8x? or do you know the temperature to be okay at that level?
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Message 1223084 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:54:50 UTC - in response to Message 1223076.  

didnt see your post before the last one:

no i dont hear the fans speeding up, but i gave this computer an extremely thurough cleaning 3 weeks ago. took apart the fans and everything. even tried to redistribute the hardened thermal paste on the GPU so it was centered again (it had hardened and moved to the corners and wasnt really on the GPU anymore.
I did not open the CPU's though but I assume they are having the same issue[/quote]
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Message 1223086 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:56:53 UTC - in response to Message 1223084.  
Last modified: 25 Apr 2012, 5:57:47 UTC

do you by any chance think that the system has been purposely limiting it to 4x because of heat? i dunno if thats even possible for it to stay at 4x indefinitely, i would think it would still try the higher multiplier at first and then back down if it was overheating, but i am just guessing here. dont really know anything about how these CPU's work.

any programs you know of that i can use to force the fans?
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Message 1223089 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 5:59:59 UTC - in response to Message 1223083.  


If you've had it apart recently then changing the thermal past from what you just used to another type won't make any difference. If you didn't replace the paste after pulling it apart, then that's most likely why it's running so hot. Strip it, clean all exsiting paste off & replace it with the thinest layer you can (i usually smear the paste on & use an old credit card or similar to scrape accross the top of the CPU to remove the excess).
Heatsink compund is there to fill in the air gaps between the heatsink & CPU, not to go between the CPU & the heatsink.

Before stripping it down, check what speed the CPU fan is running at. If it's running slow, even when the CPU is at 80°c+ then it is a problem as well. Relpace if possible, or otherwise lubricate the bearing (if it uses a sleeve bearing). As i recently found with my GTX560Ti fans, this may be easier said than done.
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Message 1223091 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 6:05:42 UTC - in response to Message 1223084.  

no i dont hear the fans speeding up,

Not a good sign.
On a laptop when it's that hot, you should be able to hear the fans- especially one with that type of CPU. Even if you can't hear it- it should be blowing a small extremely hot (almost painfull i would suggest) gale out the vents.


even tried to redistribute the hardened thermal paste on the GPU so it was centered again (it had hardened and moved to the corners)

*shudders & twitches at the thought*
Unless in extreme circumstances, if you pull a heatsink off you really need to clean off what is there & put new compound on. Re-using a compund (especially one more than a few months old) usually results in even poorer thermal conduction than you had before you pulled the heatsink off.

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Message 1223092 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 6:07:16 UTC - in response to Message 1223089.  

no i didnt change any of the paste when i opened it up, but since i got this system in early 2008 i think its a safe bet that i should do it. I am going to look into some cooling options as well, because i think it is rediculous that i spent all this money on a 2.8 ghz extreme chip and it is running at a fraction of its potential. even at a 6x multi its running around 85 degrees right now so i think i'll keep it at low frequency until i reapply some paste and find some cooling options. there is obviously extremely limited space inside of the laptop so if you or anybody knows of any good additional cooling solutions for a laptop like this one i'd love to hear about it and purchase it immidiately. thanks for all the help grant and let me know if there's anything else you think i should do. much appreciated.
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Message 1223094 - Posted: 25 Apr 2012, 6:07:55 UTC - in response to Message 1223086.  

do you by any chance think that the system has been purposely limiting it to 4x because of heat?

That's my guess.

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