The Great Debate (religion)

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1230271 - Posted: 10 May 2012, 22:43:01 UTC - in response to Message 1230135.  

well we know its not dog crap because everyone knows that stuff rolls down hill... Always. Its a law of nature

And we know who steps in it after it stops.

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Message 1230274 - Posted: 10 May 2012, 22:45:15 UTC - in response to Message 1230166.  

well we know its not dog crap because everyone knows that stuff rolls down hill... Always. Its a law of nature


Ahem... cough cough... ARE YOU SUGGESTING THERE IS NATURAL LAW?

(we may have a starting point)


Humor as a universal? I'm willing to be convinced.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1230533 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 14:19:24 UTC - in response to Message 1230279.  

I guess not. That was false hope.



Pissssst hey Guy,

Ask him if that liquid helium would be in the gravity well of that dead star. The gravity well could be called a hill. If he says it is in a gravity well ask him if it is moving away at a faster rate then the rest of the materials around it.

Just sayin....

;-}

Peace be with you....
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Message 1230561 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 15:54:41 UTC - in response to Message 1230166.  

well we know its not dog crap because everyone knows that stuff rolls down hill... Always. Its a law of nature


Ahem... cough cough... ARE YOU SUGGESTING THERE IS NATURAL LAW?

(we may have a starting point)


I know about Natural Science... Rush has me convinced of its validity

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/naturalscience.html

[1. Tide Pools]

When the ebbing tide retreats
Along the rocky shoreline
It leaves a trail of tidal pools
In a short-lived galaxy
Each microcosmic planet
A complete society

A simple kind mirror
To reflect upon our own
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...

Wheels within wheels in a spiral array
A pattern so grand and complex
Time after time we lose sight of the way
Our causes can't see their effects




In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope
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Message 1230611 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 18:29:03 UTC - in response to Message 1228742.  

We have no accepted set. Not that I haven't been making that attempt.

0+0=0 then you say..."Well, sometimes that is not true." Prove it, show me the verse where anti-matter won the day.


Math is not a natural science, thus the rules that govern it are different to the ones governing the natural sciences, for example, there are such things as mathematical proofs. Who here, other than yourself, has said that "sometimes 0+0=0 is not true"? Who here, other than yourself, has suggested anything about multi-verses?


0+0=0, always.
But 2+2 = 4 in Z, yet 2 + 2 = 0 in Z4. I am willing to bet William Rothamel knows what I mean.

Indeed, math is different from the natural sciences. As I said, though, the natural sciences use our tools.

Grades submitted after a hectic 1.6 weeks. I am back.
Thankfully, only two people chose to PM me during that timeframe, and they were moderators.

I hope one of them does not mind my paraphrasing something he said, particularly since he also posted the same idea publicly here in the thread: a lot of what we've been reading is junk, repetitive, and two people trashing each other. I was essentially asked privately if I would take a little more control of my own thread.

The things I had to get done would not allow that, for one, plus ... ha ha ... it would violate free will. ;)

But, now that I am back, give me some a few hours, and maybe I can summarize what I believe are the good points coming from either side.
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Message 1230636 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 19:47:48 UTC

I think that most of this discourse thingy about creation is crap. Big Bang? Well something sure as hell happened 14-15 billion years ago. Intelligent Design? Well, evolution is no moron. What works in the present environment, well, it works. The universe is so vast compared to us. So much that we don't understand. Why put limits on the unlimited? Look what the church did to Galileo, not to mention Copernicus. Their track record is very poor.
Do I think that there is a creator? Yes. But they aren't what we have tried to make them out to be with our mumbo jumbo. For all I know, it might have been someone with a monster collider. Dun't have a clue. And neither should you. But hey, we have to try and make up stuff to fit the questions, then bend the answers to fit our prefs. Aaaagh.
All that I would ask is to gather info and then find what fits, as did Galileo and Copernicus. :)
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Message 1230661 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 20:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 1230533.  

I guess not. That was false hope.

Pissssst hey Guy,

Ask him if that liquid helium would be in the gravity well of that dead star. The gravity well could be called a hill. If he says it is in a gravity well ask him if it is moving away at a faster rate then the rest of the materials around it.

You know you can ask me yourself, and as already mentioned, ambient temperature is not a guarantee that any helium around the dead star will be found in liquid form. Pressure is the factor you appear to ignore. Assuming that the are localized pockets where pressure is sufficiently high for liquids and solids to form is speculation, unless you have data/evidence suggesting otherwise.

Just continuing to make what appear to be baseless assumptions....
Fixed that for you.

;-}

Peace be with you....

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1230690 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 22:37:41 UTC - in response to Message 1230682.  

Guy, I always thought computers were pretty stupid, they only did what I told them to do or crashed.
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Message 1230698 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 23:08:38 UTC - in response to Message 1230682.  

Anyway, back on topic. Since I created this intelligent life in the form of a computer program, I am a GOD. If I erase that program, am I committing murder? Is that wrong?

Wrong question. Can there be life without death?

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Message 1230707 - Posted: 11 May 2012, 23:36:09 UTC - in response to Message 1230682.  
Last modified: 11 May 2012, 23:39:44 UTC

Just a quick off topic post.

Grades submitted after a hectic 1.6 weeks.


Last week, I graded just under 26,000 answers from all my tests and all my students.

Well, not really. I actually created a slave to do it for me.

Since I teach computer science, I have my students turn in their answer sheets in a particularly formatted text file over the LAN. Then I run them through a program I wrote that beats the "fill in the bubble" answer sheets and run it through the scantron by a bunch.

My program marks wrong answers, spews out raw grades, and creates a file that gives me the distribution of wrong answers.

Maybe I should work on the user interface a bit more, market it and sell it?

Anyway, back on topic. Since I created this intelligent life in the form of a computer program, I am a GOD. If I erase that program, am I committing murder? Is that wrong?


Is it intelligent enough to pass the Turing test?

[ETA]And can it replicate?[/ETA]
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1230730 - Posted: 12 May 2012, 0:35:24 UTC - in response to Message 1229884.  

Intellectually-dishonest arguments!

If it doesn't happen in nature it does not explain nature.

Nothing wrong with my critical thinking.



If God is supernatural, and thus does not occur in nature, using the reasoning above, doesn't it follow that God does not explain nature?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1230804 - Posted: 12 May 2012, 4:52:52 UTC - in response to Message 1230730.  

Intellectually-dishonest arguments!

If it doesn't happen in nature it does not explain nature.

Nothing wrong with my critical thinking.



If God is supernatural, and thus does not occur in nature, using the reasoning above, doesn't it follow that God does not explain nature?

I stand by what I have said.

And no bobby, I can't talk to you. You are Intellectually Dishonest. As are a hand full that post here.

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Message 1230829 - Posted: 12 May 2012, 5:38:12 UTC

This thread is being locked for 24 hours. Debate is welcome, Attacks are not, Hence the time out.
[/quote]

Old James
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Message 1231414 - Posted: 13 May 2012, 4:01:57 UTC - in response to Message 1230829.  
Last modified: 13 May 2012, 4:02:45 UTC

This thread is being locked for 24 hours. Debate is welcome, Attacks are not, Hence the time out.


Greetings, James et al.

Jim_S has suggested that I ask for this thread to be locked again, as it is already long (particularly for those that still have to put up with dialup) and that I start a second version of this thread, perhaps laying down some ground rules. This might not be a bad idea. however, S@H already has rules for posting on their message boards. What could I add? I can look at Qui-Gon's old "Religious Thread"s for ideas, if he'd added anything, but I do not recall that he did.

Here is one rule I absolutely insist on: no one that is discussing religion (from whatever angle) may be run out of this thread.
I had plans to create the thread anyway, but when the intelligent design and whether it should be taught in US schools arose in my "Head Scratchers" thread, it made it all the more necessary, as it was off-topic.
So, sorry, but when "xclusive (aka Dave Two)" tried to run our fellow poster Intelligent Design out of this thread and into one he (xclusive) created, that was wrong. It is part of the discussion that this thread is for, whether I agree with it or not.
And just to be clear, I do not believe the I.D. theory. But I do defend the poster I.D.s right to discuss it, in a thread which includes that as a topic.

These things being said, moderators, if you do wish to lock this thread again and have me open Mach II of this thread, let me know. However, I would appreciate some guidance, via PM discussion, regarding ground rules to set, beyond what has already been mentioned.
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Message 1231433 - Posted: 13 May 2012, 5:33:54 UTC
Last modified: 13 May 2012, 5:39:47 UTC

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. ~ Voltaire

Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe. ~ Voltaire


Perhaps he was right about Faith? Then again I doubt it. [smile] But, nevertheless I agree with the right to speak---freely and within reason.
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Message 1231556 - Posted: 13 May 2012, 14:10:21 UTC - in response to Message 1231414.  
Last modified: 13 May 2012, 14:26:00 UTC

This thread is being locked for 24 hours. Debate is welcome, Attacks are not, Hence the time out.


Greetings, James et al.

Jim_S has suggested that I ask for this thread to be locked again, as it is already long (particularly for those that still have to put up with dialup) and that I start a second version of this thread, perhaps laying down some ground rules. This might not be a bad idea. however, S@H already has rules for posting on their message boards. What could I add? I can look at Qui-Gon's old "Religious Thread"s for ideas, if he'd added anything, but I do not recall that he did.

Here is one rule I absolutely insist on: no one that is discussing religion (from whatever angle) may be run out of this thread.
I had plans to create the thread anyway, but when the intelligent design and whether it should be taught in US schools arose in my "Head Scratchers" thread, it made it all the more necessary, as it was off-topic.
So, sorry, but when "xclusive (aka Dave Two)" tried to run our fellow poster Intelligent Design out of this thread and into one he (xclusive) created, that was wrong. It is part of the discussion that this thread is for, whether I agree with it or not.
And just to be clear, I do not believe the I.D. theory. But I do defend the poster I.D.s right to discuss it, in a thread which includes that as a topic.

These things being said, moderators, if you do wish to lock this thread again and have me open Mach II of this thread, let me know. However, I would appreciate some guidance, via PM discussion, regarding ground rules to set, beyond what has already been mentioned.


Honestly Sarge, I did that because at the time this thread went way way way off the topic of religion, and began to be about another issue (creation in SCIENCE).

I surely was NOT trying to run anyone out of any thread, and I feel that I try to be an advocate of free speech. And, as much as me and ID disagree, we still participate together in the forums and have not had any issues. I have always been one of those people that feels everyone has the right to believe and practice whatever they want- so long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's right to do the same.

But I'm glad I (someone who has not started or even had any problems with anyone) got singled out, especially for trying to keep your thread from being hijacked... If when I started that thread people were frowning on it, someone could have let me know, and I would have politely requested it locked and hidden.

But since I've been singled out, when the issues happening in this thread DID NOT INVOLVE ME, I think perhaps I'll avoid this part of the forums for awhile.

what a crock. really.
#resist
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Message 1231691 - Posted: 13 May 2012, 19:57:58 UTC

* The wonder of creation

* The problem of good and evil

* The emptiness of worldly success

* The life of Jesus Christ

* The evidence of changed lives

* The question of eternity

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Message 1231801 - Posted: 14 May 2012, 0:57:12 UTC

British Professor and Philosopher, Anthony Flew..........
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