Who removed 5 atoms?

What direct evidence do you have that suggests there is a "who"? If you have no evidence, then that is "faith" and should not be taught in public schools.

I have addressed this question. Remove chance.

What reason do I have to remove chance? Is there any direct evidence that suggests I should remove chance?

I have addressed this question in another way too, show me a atom, show me a blackhole. In just the same way you believe in both I believe in a God/Designer.

Think harder....

But I don't faithfully believe in an atom or a black hole. Several scientists have made their observation(s) public and supported those observation(s) with evidence. Their conclusions can be proven wrong by another scientist or scientists at any time. Until a better theory comes along, I trust the facts currently given.

I've yet to see anyone provide any direct evidence of a "god" or "God" without making an assumption or leap of faith.

BHAWhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! My dear God! I don't care who you are--that was funny!

Care to share what was so funny about it?

Thats it, stick your fingers in your ears and say...."la, la, la, la, la, Ad nauseam.

Or just quote poetry when your core beliefs are in conflict with one another.

[Nods] Or just start accusing everyone else of not listening and laugh at them when you can't formulate a better argument.

@ Sarge.

Since we are explaining ourselves a little: I was raised catholic, my whole life I viewed it as more of a values thing, and it was never really something I took literally. I usually refer to myself as atheist. However agnostic may be more appropriate because I believe there is something beyond our universe (It came from somewhere). Whoever or whatever it is may be "god", or may bring us closer to understanding "god".

And I'm sorry to be one of the people spamming your threads on the count of strong disagreement with a certain party....

But I've pretty much stated my beliefs to that person, and I've noted his. At this point I really don't have anything left to say on the subjects he is arguing for.


Best regards

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#resist

I have addressed this question. Remove chance.

I have addressed this question in another way too, show me a atom, show me a blackhole. In just the same way you believe in both I believe in a God/Designer.

Think harder....

And as I and other's have said there's no reason to remove chance and plenty to keep it. Let's be clear, abandoning chance is abandoning the current state of science.

Concerns about the effects of chance are central to much modern day electronics, scientists once theorized that electrons could vanish from one side of a break in a super conductor and appear instantly on the other side of that break (it's called quantum tunneling), because there's a non-zero probability (aka a chance) that they might. Science has since shown this effect is not confined to super conductors. If you use a cell phone, you are using a device that to some degree has been engineered as a consequence of quantum chance events. If you have used a solar cell, you have used a device that to some degree was engineered as a consequence of quantum chance events, and the list goes on.

Your eyes are not sufficiently well adapted to make out something as small as an atom, though scientists have created devices that can measure them. By definition a black hole cannot be seen, though the effects of one can be, in this black holes are much like the wind, and I don't need to trust in a supernatural being prior to accepting the wind as a real thing, why do you think such trust is necessary to accept black holes?

You asked for honesty, so please be honest with us, you say you reject chance, I (and others) say this is a rejection of science. Why do you insist we are wrong? I (and I suspect others) are not asking you to reject your faith in a supernatural being, just that you keep this faith where is belongs, outside of the endeavors of natural science. As the Magisterium noted "There are materialist and reductionist theories, as well as spiritualist theories.", it is the former of these types of theories that are called scientific, not the latter, as the latter are, by definition, supernatural.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Since we are explaining ourselves a little: I was raised catholic, my whole life I viewed it as more of a values thing, and it was never really something I took literally. I usually refer to myself as atheist. However agnostic may be more appropriate because I believe there is something beyond our universe (It came from somewhere). Whoever or whatever it is may be "god", or may bring us closer to understanding "god".

I've challenged Sarge before and I'd like to challenge you on the same thing.

Personally, I don't believe that anyone can be Agnostic for very long. We all know that it is not within our current understand to "know" if there is a God using evidence-based understanding. So all that's left is faith; do you believe there's a God (however you want to describe him/her/it)? I can understand being Agnostic while you debate this question, but after a while, by not making up your mind, you've made up your mind. If you doubt even in the slightest, you're an Atheist. If you believe, then you believe and that's OK.

Would it be any different if the question was about your wife: "Do you love her?" You either believe you do or you believe you don't. You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

This thread was not created solely for you and for people to debate with you.

You know I couldn't pass that one up El Broheim. aka SargeNOTagent. aka The Prof

I don't know why Religion would be debated. After 2000 years, what's the point?

Historically and Theologically it is Very Interesting. As Public Banter, it is A Bore and Very Devisive.

I Love to watch TV shows, Documentaries, Movies, and Read Books about Religion.
Fact(LOL) or Fantasy Based. Done right it is Time Well Spent being Entertained and Infotained. Even when The Info is Mostly Wrong.

The Left Behind Series is some GOD Damn good reads. I felt like The 4 Horsemen were bearing down on me.

IgnoreMePleaseDullNando

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

As Bobby said, though, these are estimates.

Strictly speaking it was Crichton, though I happen to agree with his view on the subject :-)

It was probably news to ID that you consider yourself agnostic, and I know we have a difference of opinion that has not been explored to any great degree, though for ID's benefit I'll admit to being an atheist myself. Unfortunately for me, it seems in ID's view of the world such an admission means I am moral free, and while I don't agree (but then I wouldn't, would I?), I suspect there is little point in providing ID with a case for the morals an atheist may choose for him/herself. I also suspect that others here may not require belief in a supernatural being as a precursor to moral behavior.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I don't know why Religion would be debated. After 2000 years, what's the point?

Historically and Theologically it is Very Interesting. As Public Banter, it is A Bore and Very Devisive.

Because its too important not to talk about. Like evolution, only the strongest ideas survive, so we must banter and argue and banter some more, even if we don't come to a conclusion or consensus in our lifetimes... because its just too damned important not to talk about.

I Love to watch TV shows, Documentaries, Movies, and Read Books about Religion.
Fact(LOL) or Fantasy Based. Done right it is Time Well Spent being Entertained and Infotained. Even when The Info is Mostly Wrong.

I think we share something in common here Dull. I love watching movies, documentaries and books about religion, even if they are simply works of fiction (intended or not). One of my two favorite movies to this day is The Matrix, which is clearly and firmly into the Christian theology.

I also suspect that others here may not require belief in a supernatural being as a precursor to moral behavior.

[raises hand in affirmation]

You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

Does the phrase arranged marriage mean anything?

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I've challenged Sarge before and I'd like to challenge you on the same thing.

Challenge accepted.

Personally, I don't believe that anyone can be Agnostic for very long. We all know that it is not within our current understand to "know" if there is a God using evidence-based understanding.

I don't "know" anything about what's beyond the universe. All I really stated was that I "believe" there must be "something" beyond our universe. And I make the assumption that this "something" would be the closest thing to exist in science, that could be compared to the idea of "god".

So all that's left is faith; do you believe there's a God (however you want to describe him/her/it)?

I don't know if there is a "god". I'm pretty sure however it's not a guy in the clouds that will throw lightning bolts at you. I'm more inclined to believe that it's (whatever it is) quite possibly way out side of our perceptions.

I can understand being Agnostic while you debate this question, but after a while, by not making up your mind, you've made up your mind. If you doubt even in the slightest, you're an Atheist. If you believe, then you believe and that's OK.

Honestly I "believe" something must exist beyond our universe. Whether or not this is god, I don't know. But given our limited understanding, I'd say it'd be closer than we've been to "finding" "god".
Whether or not this makes me agnostic or atheist, I'm honestly not sure. But since I tend to think "something" must be outside of our universe, I sometimes use the term "agnostic" to better describe my beliefs to others, however I consider myself an atheist because I am not a believer of any religion.

Would it be any different if the question was about your wife: "Do you love her?" You either believe you do or you believe you don't. You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

With my wife, I know I love her. As far as what exists outside of our universe, I don't know what's there, none of us do. So given that I don't know, I am therefore "on the fence". (whether or not you think that's possible)

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#resist

You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

Does the phrase arranged marriage mean anything?

Yes; that I don't believe that they should exist.

Honestly I "believe" something must exist beyond our universe. Whether or not this is god, I don't know. But given out limited understanding, I'd say it'd be closer than we've been to "finding" "god".
Whether or not this makes me agnostic or atheist, I'm honestly not sure. But since I tend to thing "something" must be outside of our universe, I sometimes use the term "agnostic" to better describe my beliefs to others, however I consider myself an atheist because I am not a believer of any religion.

The definition of Atheist is someone who lacks faith. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any of the current alternative offerings, doesn't mean you're Atheist.

Indeed, since you believe that there must be something, you're far from an Atheist. Your a Theist (possibly Deist) without a cult (a.k.a. organized religion).

By stating that you believe there's something, you're also not Agnostic either.

Would it be any different if the question was about your wife: "Do you love her?" You either believe you do or you believe you don't. You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

With my wife, I know I love her. As far as what exists outside of our universe, I don't know what's there, none of us do. So given that I don't know, I am therefore "on the fence". (whether or not you think that's possible)

...but you're not "on the fence". You already stated above that you believe there is something. You believe. You're a Theist or Deist. You're not Agnostic or Atheist. And that's OK.

"I also suspect that others here may not require belief in a supernatural being as a precursor to moral behavior.
"

Suspicions confirmed.

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Janice

One of my two favorite movies to this day is The Matrix, which is clearly and firmly into the Christian theology.

I think the writers of that one tried to hit up a few other philosophies and theologies, from Platonic dualism, through Judaism and Buddhism to modern French (did you see the cover of the book Neo took the disk from?).

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

One of my two favorite movies to this day is The Matrix, which is clearly and firmly into the Christian theology.

I think the writers of that one tried to hit up a few other philosophies and theologies, from Platonic dualism, through Judaism and Buddhism to modern French (did you see the cover of the book Neo took the disk from?).

Agreed, they did do a mix of other theologies, but the prevailing theory of a man who has to sacrifice himself for the greater good is largely reminiscent of Christianity. There are also several parallels of the characters in the movie to those in the Bible.

Honestly I "believe" something must exist beyond our universe. Whether or not this is god, I don't know. But given out limited understanding, I'd say it'd be closer than we've been to "finding" "god".
Whether or not this makes me agnostic or atheist, I'm honestly not sure. But since I tend to thing "something" must be outside of our universe, I sometimes use the term "agnostic" to better describe my beliefs to others, however I consider myself an atheist because I am not a believer of any religion.

The definition of Atheist is someone who lacks faith. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any of the current alternative offerings, doesn't mean you're Atheist.

Indeed, since you believe that there must be something, you're far from an Atheist. Your a Theist (possibly Deist) without a cult (a.k.a. organized religion).

By stating that you believe there's something, you're also not Agnostic either.

Would it be any different if the question was about your wife: "Do you love her?" You either believe you do or you believe you don't. You can't be on the fence and keep your marriage.

With my wife, I know I love her. As far as what exists outside of our universe, I don't know what's there, none of us do. So given that I don't know, I am therefore "on the fence". (whether or not you think that's possible)

...but you're not "on the fence". You already stated above that you believe there is something. You believe. You're a Theist or Deist. You're not Agnostic or Atheist. And that's OK.

I've been referred to by others in the past as a "Deist"...

But as I have mentioned, I am NOT SURE of an existence of something outside the universe.

If our universe exists as a bubble of air in an ocean [strictly for example sake], I would consider that ocean as the "something" outside of our universe. That ocean is not necessarily god, as I mentioned before finding it may just bring us closer to "god" (If "god" exists).

So because I'm not sure if I'm believing in: "god", or just believing that our universe exists inside something, I don't know that there is a proper label for that besides "curious and unsure".

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#resist

I've been referred to by others in the past as a "Deist"...

But as I have mentioned, I am NOT SURE of an existence of something outside the universe.

Its OK if you're not sure. That's part of being a human; or a skeptical human. You're unsure because like I said, no one can "know" if God or god exists.

So remove knowledge from the equation and you're left with faith. Do you believe or do you not believe? You said you believe there must be something out there, and that's OK. If you lack belief, then you have no faith, then that would make you an Atheist.

He's just a Genius' Genius

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Janice

I've been referred to by others in the past as a "Deist"...

But as I have mentioned, I am NOT SURE of an existence of something outside the universe.

Its OK if you're not sure. That's part of being a human; or a skeptical human. You're unsure because like I said, no one can "know" if God or god exists.

So remove knowledge from the equation and you're left with faith. Do you believe or do you not believe? You said you believe there must be something out there, and that's OK. If you lack belief, then you have no faith, then that would make you an Atheist.

Lol, round and round we go.

I am not sure if I believe in anything.

[I should have specified earlier "I believe in the possibility of something outside of our universe"]

(And again, it could just be another "universe" outside of ours, which I am not sure qualifies as "god" so much as it brings is one step closer to understanding why our universe exisits.)

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#resist