Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Message 1326902 - Posted: 12 Jan 2013, 1:05:21 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jan 2013, 1:06:03 UTC

From the Guardian on a report by The "National Climate Assessment and Development Advisory Committee" (NCADAC)
Climate change set to make America hotter, drier and more disaster-prone

Draft report from NCA makes clear link between climate change and extreme weather as groups urge Obama to take action


"Climate change is already affecting the American people," the draft report said. "Certain types of weather events have become more frequent and/or intense including heat waves, heavy downpours and in some regions floods and drought. Sea level is rising, oceans are becoming more acidic, and glaciers and Arctic sea ice are melting."


The 1000 page draft report is available at the NCADAC site.
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Message 1327177 - Posted: 12 Jan 2013, 20:56:43 UTC - in response to Message 1326366.  

Way off topic Gary, and the same could be said of ANY religious government.

If you are going to get an agreement to cut CO2 -- population as we now realize that is a root cause -- I think that presupposes you have to deal with all governments, even religious ones. Perhaps religious ones more so than others due to religious sex views. If you know you can't get an agreement then you choices are, get hot or impose via force. Martin doesn't like it when I point the latter one appears to be the only one where success can be assured.


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Message 1327209 - Posted: 12 Jan 2013, 23:21:46 UTC - in response to Message 1327177.  

Population is an issue Gary, as is the habits the population develops. But perhaps we should re-think cutting womens health services including birth control? After all we all benefit.

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Message 1327261 - Posted: 13 Jan 2013, 2:02:50 UTC - in response to Message 1327209.  

Population is an issue Gary, as is the habits the population develops. But perhaps we should re-think cutting womens health services including birth control? After all we all benefit.

Who is the we?

In any case the issue is simple: Is reproduction an inalienable right?

Can government control it? Either way.

If not, how can we get the population reduced to a level that we can continue on this planet industrialized? Especially given all the religions and their weird commands from mythical gods about go forth and multiply to get me bigger flocks to fleece.

Just pointing out that the technical cuts we can do today are good, but absolutely not a solution. If humans have gone from 0.5B to 7.0B in a little over 400 years, it is a major undertaking to make sure it stays under control for the next 100,000 years. The technical cuts won't even last us 50 years at our current growth rate.

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Message 1327902 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 12:09:46 UTC

The pressure to act sooner rather than later continues:


2012 was in top 10 warmest on record

... Both teams said that temperatures would have been higher if it hadn't been for the La Nina weather pattern that brought cooling to some regions.

They were equally certain carbon dioxide had been the principal driver of the rise over the past 50 years. ...

... "The perceptive person should notice that the frequency of unusually warm extremes is increasing. It is the extremes that have the most impact on people and other life on the planet," he said.

According to both groups of researchers most areas of the world had higher than average temperatures in 2012 while the Arctic experienced a record breaking ice melt.



NASA Finds Long-Term Climate Warming Trend

... "One more year of numbers isn't in itself significant," GISS climatologist Gavin Schmidt said. "What matters is this decade is warmer than the last decade, and that decade was warmer than the decade before. The planet is warming. The reason it's warming is because we are pumping increasing amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere." ...


Effects of climate change will be felt more deeply in decades ahead, draft report says

A federal advisory panel released a draft report Friday on how Americans can adapt to a changing climate, a more than 1,000 page tome that also sums up what has become increasingly apparent: The country is hotter than it used to be, rainfall is becoming both more intense and more erratic, and rising seas and storm surges threaten U.S. coasts. ...



Meanwhile, yet another angle to 'buy time' for a good long term fix:

Black carbon ranks as second-biggest human cause of global warming

Soot ranks as the second-largest human contributor to climate change, according to a new analysis released Tuesday, exerting twice as much of an impact as previously  thought.

The four-year, 232-page study of black carbon, published in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Atmospheres, shows that short-lived pollution known as soot, such as emissions from diesel engines and wood-fired stoves, has about two-thirds the climate impact of carbon dioxide. ...



Climate change: Soot's role underestimated, says study

... Scientists say that particles from diesel engines and wood burning could be having twice as much warming effect as assessed in past estimates.

They say it ranks second only to carbon dioxide as the most important climate-warming agent. ...

... The researchers say black carbon emissions in Europe and North America have been declining due to restrictions on emissions from diesel engines. But they have been growing steadily in the developing world. However as these type of particles don't last very long in the atmosphere, cutting their number would have an immediate impact on temperatures.
diesel engine Cutting emissions from diesel engines could have a big effect

"Reducing emissions from diesel engines and domestic wood and coal fires is a no-brainer as there are tandem health and climate benefits,"...




All a question of politics and fossil fuels corruption to turn our planet around?

All on our only planet,
Martin


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Message 1327909 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 12:55:42 UTC - in response to Message 1327902.  

The pressure to act sooner rather than later continues:


2012 was in top 10 warmest on record

... Both teams said that temperatures would have been higher if it hadn't been for the La Nina weather pattern that brought cooling to some regions.

They were equally certain carbon dioxide had been the principal driver of the rise over the past 50 years. ...

... "The perceptive person should notice that the frequency of unusually warm extremes is increasing. It is the extremes that have the most impact on people and other life on the planet," he said.

According to both groups of researchers most areas of the world had higher than average temperatures in 2012 while the Arctic experienced a record breaking ice melt.



NASA Finds Long-Term Climate Warming Trend

... "One more year of numbers isn't in itself significant," GISS climatologist Gavin Schmidt said. "What matters is this decade is warmer than the last decade, and that decade was warmer than the decade before. The planet is warming. The reason it's warming is because we are pumping increasing amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere." ...


Effects of climate change will be felt more deeply in decades ahead, draft report says

A federal advisory panel released a draft report Friday on how Americans can adapt to a changing climate, a more than 1,000 page tome that also sums up what has become increasingly apparent: The country is hotter than it used to be, rainfall is becoming both more intense and more erratic, and rising seas and storm surges threaten U.S. coasts. ...



Meanwhile, yet another angle to 'buy time' for a good long term fix:

Black carbon ranks as second-biggest human cause of global warming

Soot ranks as the second-largest human contributor to climate change, according to a new analysis released Tuesday, exerting twice as much of an impact as previously  thought.

The four-year, 232-page study of black carbon, published in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Atmospheres, shows that short-lived pollution known as soot, such as emissions from diesel engines and wood-fired stoves, has about two-thirds the climate impact of carbon dioxide. ...



Climate change: Soot's role underestimated, says study

... Scientists say that particles from diesel engines and wood burning could be having twice as much warming effect as assessed in past estimates.

They say it ranks second only to carbon dioxide as the most important climate-warming agent. ...

... The researchers say black carbon emissions in Europe and North America have been declining due to restrictions on emissions from diesel engines. But they have been growing steadily in the developing world. However as these type of particles don't last very long in the atmosphere, cutting their number would have an immediate impact on temperatures.
diesel engine Cutting emissions from diesel engines could have a big effect

"Reducing emissions from diesel engines and domestic wood and coal fires is a no-brainer as there are tandem health and climate benefits,"...




All a question of politics and fossil fuels corruption to turn our planet around?

All on our only planet,
Martin


All well and good for us developed countrys to cut back on carbon emmissions. But do you really think that emerging 3rd world countrys will give up there chance at a slice of economic pie because we say they need to do it? Try telling the poor in those countrys that they cant burn wood or coal in the winter for heat. Try telling China to start cutting back see where that will get you. As Gary stated in an above post, Your going to have to force countrys to start cutting back. I can see how that will go over. Only thing that will happen is a population decrease from a war.


[/quote]

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Message 1327949 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 15:45:53 UTC

The Irony!!!

Got a little chuckle out of this. Maybe they should've held their protest in Arizona and teleconfrenced via Skype.
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Message 1327951 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 15:53:26 UTC - in response to Message 1327949.  

The Irony!!!

Got a little chuckle out of this. Maybe they should've held their protest in Arizona and teleconfrenced via Skype.

How so?... The irony is?

Are the wildfires and recent 54 deg C (129 deg Fahrenheit) of Australia ironic?...


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Message 1327979 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 17:04:13 UTC - in response to Message 1327951.  
Last modified: 16 Jan 2013, 17:05:07 UTC


Are the wildfires and recent 54 deg C (129 deg Fahrenheit) of Australia ironic?...


No, what ironic is 200 people standing around in 34°F weather protesting global warming. Your reference to temps in Austrialia is for an area roughly 100 sq miles (not very large for Australia). Not to mention the fact that the effected area is so sparsely populated...



...due to the fact that the area is ummmm, DESERT!!



Death Valley consistantly see temps reaching 120°F+ during the summer...It's desert, it's suppose to get hot. When Sydney hits 129°F, let me know.
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Message 1327985 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 17:14:46 UTC - in response to Message 1327979.  
Last modified: 16 Jan 2013, 17:15:44 UTC

Are the wildfires and recent 54 deg C (129 deg Fahrenheit) of Australia ironic?...

No, what ironic is 200 people standing around in 34°F weather protesting global warming. ...

I considered that you might be angling on that, but gave you the benefit of the doubt. Sorry I was wrong: Such is denialist simplistic irony.

Confusing (daily) weather and decades scale climate is far too long now worn out to be a dumb excuse.


Death Valley consistantly see temps reaching 120°F+ during the summer...It's desert, it's suppose to get hot. When Sydney hits 129°F, let me know.

So you know nothing of where Sydney is located nor what that means for weather and temperatures?

I guess it really does mean nothing to you that the weather office have had to extend the temperature scale for their forecasts?


So you deny reality around you so that you can feel good about the fossil fuels corruption? Are you too old to care? Or too politically blind to notice?


All on our only one planet,
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Message 1327997 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 17:41:05 UTC

Seems what the world really needs is a international team of respected scientists. ( not the crackpot fringe that seems to be on both sides )To do an unbiased study. Not until then will the commom folk care.

As for myself, I have lived my whole life in the Syracuse area. Except the 8 years I was in the service. Something is going on with climate. Is it global warming? Local flukes? I dont know, but I have an open mind.
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Message 1328009 - Posted: 16 Jan 2013, 17:54:39 UTC - in response to Message 1327997.  

Seems what the world really needs is a international team of respected scientists. ( not the crackpot fringe that seems to be on both sides )To do an unbiased study. Not until then will the commom folk care.

As for myself, I have lived my whole life in the Syracuse area. Except the 8 years I was in the service. Something is going on with climate. Is it global warming? Local flukes? I dont know, but I have an open mind.


+1 As someone who has lived a stone's throw from James for the entirety of 30+ years, there is definitely a change in the climate.

Just like James, I wont speculate on the cause. But I am positive there is a change, we've been seeing it for a few years now.
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Message 1328432 - Posted: 17 Jan 2013, 22:41:18 UTC
Last modified: 17 Jan 2013, 22:42:03 UTC

Hopefully, cleaning up and sorting this one out can be seen as a win-win for everyone AND our only one planet:


Soot forces temperatures more than thought: AGU

A paper just published by the American Geophysical Union has elevated the role of soot – “black carbon” in the science – to a new high in terms of its climate influence.

According to the new study, soot is a stronger influencer of the global climate than methane. While the study doesn’t downplay the dominant role of carbon dioxide as the main greenhouse gas, it’s seen by some commentators as offering a more immediate climate response – cutting black carbon in a shorter timeframe while the world ponders its response to the CO2 problem. ...

... around two-thirds of the warming impact of CO2 - and twice the warming estimate previously attributed to black carbon. ...

... “There are exciting opportunities to cool climate by reducing soot emissions but it is not straightforward. Reducing emissions from diesel engines and domestic wood and coal fires is a no-brainer, as there are tandem health and climate benefits.

“If we did everything we could to reduce these emissions we could buy ourselves up to half a degree less warming — or a couple of decades of respite.” ...




NASA snaps pics of China's 'Airpocalypse' pollution disaster

China's capital city, Beijing, is suffering from some of the worst air pollution imaginable – and NASA has the images to prove it.

The lung-clogging cloud enveloping Beijing was measured by the US embassy on January 14 and found to contain...

... mean "Health alert: everyone may experience more serious health effects," and not just those members of sensitive groups who already have respiratory challenges. ...





However, note the very apt comment:

And of course

All the coal producers are going to fight this as hard as they can.



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Message 1328676 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 16:27:22 UTC - in response to Message 1328009.  

+1 As someone who has lived a stone's throw from James for the entirety of 30+ years, there is definitely a change in the climate.

Just like James, I wont speculate on the cause. But I am positive there is a change, we've been seeing it for a few years now.


Can't comment on your local area, but I will comment in general. Southern California recently had a cold snap. Lots of people telling me it has never been as cold. Well, that is BS. I remember colder. I suspect a lot of what people remember has changed. I believe there are lots of studies that show the attention span has gotten much shorter over the years and particularly accelerated with the introduction of TV. I suspect a lot of the perception is simply related effect. That is why only hard numbers matter and it seems we can't trust the old numbers because they have to be massaged, due to changes in the environment around the weather station. That should lower confidence levels in any conclusion.

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Message 1328683 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 16:51:25 UTC - in response to Message 1328676.  

+1 As someone who has lived a stone's throw from James for the entirety of 30+ years, there is definitely a change in the climate.

Just like James, I wont speculate on the cause. But I am positive there is a change, we've been seeing it for a few years now.


Can't comment on your local area, but I will comment in general. Southern California recently had a cold snap. Lots of people telling me it has never been as cold. Well, that is BS. I remember colder. I suspect a lot of what people remember has changed. I believe there are lots of studies that show the attention span has gotten much shorter over the years and particularly accelerated with the introduction of TV. I suspect a lot of the perception is simply related effect. That is why only hard numbers matter and it seems we can't trust the old numbers because they have to be massaged, due to changes in the environment around the weather station. That should lower confidence levels in any conclusion.

But that was one of the reasons the anti-global warming people complained about when the scientists at East Anglia university removed about half of the data.
The "anti's" said all data had to be included, but because it was known that figures were dubious because of local enviornment changes they were excluded and that caused the arguments.
The data has been further reviewed and the report from East Anglia has been accepted.
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Message 1328699 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 17:26:46 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jan 2013, 17:28:52 UTC

And like I stated we need to have a world wide unbiased study. My city has records that go back just over 100 years i would think most cities have records that are comparable in the US.

I can remember my dad driving his car on Onieda lake in the middle of january to go ice fishing. The last two years Id be afraid to walk on the ice close to shore.

I still have an open mind. But id like to see some honest studies done.
And we dont need to be raping our planet of its resources like thet is no tomorrow and the cornacopia will always be full.
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Message 1328700 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 17:35:12 UTC - in response to Message 1328676.  

+1 As someone who has lived a stone's throw from James for the entirety of 30+ years, there is definitely a change in the climate.

Just like James, I wont speculate on the cause. But I am positive there is a change, we've been seeing it for a few years now.


Can't comment on your local area, but I will comment in general. Southern California recently had a cold snap. Lots of people telling me it has never been as cold. Well, that is BS. I remember colder. I suspect a lot of what people remember has changed. I believe there are lots of studies that show the attention span has gotten much shorter over the years and particularly accelerated with the introduction of TV. I suspect a lot of the perception is simply related effect. That is why only hard numbers matter and it seems we can't trust the old numbers because they have to be massaged, due to changes in the environment around the weather station. That should lower confidence levels in any conclusion.


There are lots of hard numbers though Gary.
Local hard numbers, (I posted in response many months ago to Will Rothamel, with local statistics) and larger regional hard data which has been endlessly posted by others.
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Message 1328713 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 18:21:40 UTC - in response to Message 1328699.  

Local weather records, Richard Towneley, who lived at Townley Hall and Park, during the 17th century was one of the first people to record the weather.

Yes they go back some way. Townley hall is about 8 miles away.
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Message 1328722 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 18:32:33 UTC - in response to Message 1328713.  
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Local weather records, Richard Towneley, who lived at Townley Hall and Park, during the 17th century was one of the first people to record the weather.

Yes they go back some way. Townley hall is about 8 miles away.

And I can think of no reason not to use them. Gary seems to imply that they might be inflated. Why, I might ask. Why is it so hard to belive the bloke just wrote down wind speed, direction, temp, barometric pressure, rainfall, snowfall. or whatever else a weather dude or dudette did.

When I was staioned at Shemya Air Force Base Alaska. I kept a log book of just that infromation for the year 1977 and part of 1978. No embellishments just what was fact.
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Message 1328728 - Posted: 18 Jan 2013, 18:53:49 UTC - in response to Message 1328722.  

Probably would not include Richard Towneley's result's, as in his time the population of the local town of Burnley was about 1200.

Half a century later coal mining and cotton weaving arrived and by the time of the American Civil war the population had grown to ~25,000. Putting Townley Hall inside the town rather than out in the country.
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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