Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Message 1325023 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 18:51:38 UTC

Hydrogen can be split from water with heat. Nuke fans rejoice. There is of
course the waste gas emitted into the atmosphere. Namely: Oxygen.

No one thinks this is a green house gas.

<< not a nuke fan.

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Message 1325038 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 19:42:58 UTC - in response to Message 1324788.  

Just found this, Pure Energy UK News, Africa’s First Wind Hydrogen System Launched

Looks like it works.
Later news. http://www.pureenergycentre.com/pureenergycentre/Pure_Energy_Centre_News/Pure_Energy_Centre_Africa_first_wind_hydrogen_project_present_at_IPHE.php

One small step towards a hydrogen economy. If this becomes common it will be very exciting.
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Message 1325480 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 10:40:51 UTC

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Message 1325501 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 13:08:21 UTC - in response to Message 1325480.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 13:10:20 UTC

A cautionary report on Biofuels.

Biofuels cause pollution, not as green as thought - study

Thanks for that, that's an interesting one.

However... As is too often the case, that is just one small sensationalist snippet of a wider story... Important to consider when deciding what to plant and where and how and how much, but the story as presented there is not the full story.

Growing biofuels also reduces other pollutants that are harmful to our health. They also avoid burning some of the more noxious fossil fuels and also avoid the pollution involved in digging up those fossil fuels... So overall, how many people die as a result?

A good summary surrounding that story is given in a pdf 'brochure' given by the same research group: Our recent work on urban trees and air quality is described


Yet another example of crass journalism sensationalism trash chasing any sensational angle possible and the full truth be damned.

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Message 1325522 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 14:42:34 UTC - in response to Message 1325501.  

A cautionary report on Biofuels.

Biofuels cause pollution, not as green as thought - study

Thanks for that, that's an interesting one.

However... As is too often the case, that is just one small sensationalist snippet of a wider story... Important to consider when deciding what to plant and where and how and how much, but the story as presented there is not the full story.

Growing biofuels also reduces other pollutants that are harmful to our health. They also avoid burning some of the more noxious fossil fuels and also avoid the pollution involved in digging up those fossil fuels... So overall, how many people die as a result?

A good summary surrounding that story is given in a pdf 'brochure' given by the same research group: Our recent work on urban trees and air quality is described


Yet another example of crass journalism sensationalism trash chasing any sensational angle possible and the full truth be damned.

Another rapid dismissal by the wave your hands and make is so crowd.
"As far as we know, no one has looked at the air quality of growing biofuel crops before," he added.

The problem is orders of magnitude larger that you can admit.

One report is for dense urban areas, the other for rural areas. Apples / Oranges.

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Message 1325528 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 15:31:10 UTC - in response to Message 1325522.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 15:38:52 UTC

... Important to consider when deciding what to plant and where and how and how much, but the story as presented there is not the full story.

Growing biofuels also reduces other pollutants that are harmful to our health. They also avoid burning some of the more noxious fossil fuels and also avoid the pollution involved in digging up those fossil fuels... So overall, how many people die as a result?

A good summary surrounding that story is given in a pdf 'brochure' given by the same research group: Our recent work on urban trees and air quality is described


Yet another example of crass journalism sensationalism trash chasing any sensational angle possible and the full truth be damned.

Another rapid dismissal by the wave your hands and make is so crowd.

You're so rapid we can't even see your hands blur by...

"As far as we know, no one has looked at the air quality of growing biofuel crops before," he added.

The problem is orders of magnitude larger that you can admit.

Yes that has been looked at as in not specifically for biofuel crops but certainly so for the trees/plants being used for biofuel. Which is precisely why they looked further and to greater detail.

Now for your hand waving: Please quote EXACTLY your "orders of magnitude" and what those numbers actually are.

Or are you only worthless jaundiced hot air and effluent rolling along on a troll? It is very noticeable that we get nothing firmer than soft wet FUD mud from you...

One report is for dense urban areas, the other for rural areas. Apples / Oranges.

For all your dismissiveness, let's see your firm evidence and references. So far, just hot air and yet more gas from you.


Just to give you a bit of a clue: It is "well known" that forests create their own beneficial local climate that promotes rainfall and a 'smog' of aerosols for protection. Creating ozone may well be an important part of that mutual protection...

The question is in the numbers. I strongly suspect that far more people will die from the effects of the full cycle of using the equivalent fossil fuels than can die from the growing and use of biofuels. (And yes, that excludes the extremes of your expected claims of starving people to feed the power stations!)

You may well expect to see a very positive effect from people being able to enjoy being amongst the growing biofuels...


Your hard evidence and numbers please?

(Please refrain from jaundiced flippancy.)


All on our only planet,
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Message 1325543 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 17:36:00 UTC - in response to Message 1325528.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 17:36:44 UTC

Facts which you continue to ignore:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead
As a result, by 1650 the world population had only increased to about 500 million. By 1800, though, thanks to improved agriculture and sanitation, it doubled to more than one billion. And, in 2002 when Haub last made these calculations, the planet's population had exploded, reaching 6.2 billion.

Yet you continue to claim the issue isn't how many humans there are. You can't make a linear cut to CO2 when the users of CO2 are growing exponentially and expect CO2 to go down, or do you also deny math?

As I said the problem is orders of magnitude larger than you will admit.

Cutting CO2, cutting all pollution, is good, it just isn't going to solve the problem by itself.

If you want the problem solved, then you must address all aspects of the problem, otherwise you are wasting your time and in this case consigning humanity to hell.
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Message 1325557 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 18:20:58 UTC - in response to Message 1325543.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 18:26:30 UTC

Facts which you continue to ignore:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead
As a result, by 1650 the world population had only increased to about 500 million. By 1800, though, thanks to improved agriculture and sanitation, it doubled to more than one billion. And, in 2002 when Haub last made these calculations, the planet's population had exploded, reaching 6.2 billion.

Yet you continue to claim the issue isn't how many humans there are. You can't make a linear cut to CO2 when the users of CO2 are growing exponentially and expect CO2 to go down, or do you also deny math?

As I said the problem is orders of magnitude larger than you will admit.

Cutting CO2, cutting all pollution, is good, it just isn't going to solve the problem by itself.

If you want the problem solved, then you must address all aspects of the problem, otherwise you are wasting your time and in this case consigning humanity to hell.

Hallelujah!

The usual shift and dodge of topic but that's perhaps the best posting you've made all year! Well done that old man. And no mention of nukes or any such nasties other than just doom. There may be hope yet...


For the people 'problem': Politics and Education?

That's a much better 'solution' than hell and damnation in runaway climate, extreme weather, war, famine, and pestilence.


We badly need to work more on the politics, and faster.

For the education angle, we have Kerala as a good example, and likely others elsewhere. Another good example of living within the available resources, even if quite a harsh example, is the Tibetan cultural ideas (although we certainly do not need to live that harshly/frugally).


Can we do it?
And soon enough?

Can all this "Greens Enviro" stuff buy us enough time to make it work?


All on our only one world,
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Message 1325691 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 5:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 1325557.  

I see you continue to deny the math.

Even your green sites admit the math.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-mckibben/obama-climate-change_b_2424447.html?utm_hp_ref=green
If we’re to slow it down, we need to be cutting emissions globally at a sensational rate, by something like 5% a year to make a real difference.

That is 5% year 1. 5% + 5% year 2. 5% + 5% + 5% year 3. ...
Exponential growth. But as the population is growing exponentially that makes sense.


One of these days you will understand the math. The day you do you will see that what is being called for is the deindustrilization of humans or a massive cut in the population of humans or some combination. Sorry but the math doesn't lie.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead
As a result, by 1650 the world population had only increased to about 500 million.

A sustainable number.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
1) Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2) Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.

And one not picked out of thin air.

How do you propose to get humanity down to this number? Do not forget the animalistic nature of humans. Do you think this number can be negotiated? Are you sure you actually can get enough to go along? Consider China's policy before you answer. If they don't do it, do you have a plan B? What is plan B? Are you sure that whatever you implement will hold not only a century down the road but 10 millennia? Remember if the models are right, failure is not an option, nor can we ever again allow humans to get close.

Maybe if you looked at this backwards you could see it. How much CO2 does a fully industrialized human cause to be emitted per year today? How much total CO2 can we allow to be emitted per year? What planetary population figure does that result in? Can the planet actually sustain that amount of CO2 emission per year on a long term e.g. 10 millennia basis?

You desperately want a bandaid solution. Can't blame you. Reality is hard to face.

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Message 1325751 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 10:53:20 UTC - in response to Message 1325691.  

I see you continue to deny the math.

... Reality is hard to face.

And so you go flying off the rails again...

Obviously, we cannot sustain continued exponential population growth. Already there are signs that is slowing: World population growth rate 1950–2050

Note also from that Wikipedia article: Population control

... population control to alleviate environmental pressures need not be coercive. It states that "Women who are educated, economically engaged, and in control of their own bodies can enjoy the freedom of bearing children at their own pace, which happens to be a rate that is appropriate for the aggregate ecological endowment of our planet."...


Can you instead divert your doom and gloom energies into helping everyone in the world around you to overcome the fossil-fuels industry corruption?

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Message 1325752 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 11:02:18 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jan 2013, 11:03:28 UTC

Two contrasting news snippets from this morning:


And so it begins?

Searing temperatures fan Australia wildfires

... More than 130 fires are currently burning in New South Wales... Four areas in New South Wales have been given a "catastrophic" fire danger rating... first time that average national top temperatures over 39C had been recorded on five consecutive days...

... In New South Wales, temperatures had passed 40C by midday at the coast. Winds of up to 80kph (50mph) have also been forecast. ...

... in Penrith near Sydney, told the BBC the heat was extreme.

"It is currently 45C - which is the hottest I've ever experienced, coming from the UK originally," he said.

"As I was on my way home, I could see smoke in the sky, which was very hazy... I saw a number of people being treated for heat exhaustion and dehydration.



Meanwhile, along with the Canadian "Burn Baby Burn!" and their flagrant CO2 pollution, we have all the worms and fish getting poisoned...

Oil sands' toxins 'accumulate in freshwater ecosystems'

... [polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons] levels were now 2.5-23 times greater than levels from about 1960. ...

... concerned residents on the shores of Lake Athabasca (downstream from one of the region's major oil sands facilities) had called for the federal government to commission an independent study to assess the impact on the area's water bodies.

The call came after local people said a growing number of landed fish where showing signs of deformities.

They voiced concern that there was not an effective system of environmental monitoring was in place. ...





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Message 1325810 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 15:34:11 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jan 2013, 15:36:20 UTC

Sounds like the planet Earth is doomed to me. This months Astronomey magazine had a litlle news item that says our star is a variable. And is heating up as it ages. So in about 800,000 years Earth will be toast.

Seeing how most folks dont care about space exploration and see it as a waste of money, Why do scientist continue to have dreams of colonizeing another planet or star system?

We are going to die anyway so lets just use up our fossil fules and pollute the hell out of our planet. Better to die by our own making then let mother nature wipe out our pitifull shortsighted stupid race.


edit- I forgot the big sarcasm icon.
[/quote]

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Message 1325859 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 21:10:07 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jan 2013, 21:10:29 UTC

Washington Post reports NOAA saying 2012 hottest year.

2012 hottest year on record in contiguous U.S., NOAA says
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Message 1326120 - Posted: 9 Jan 2013, 18:04:29 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jan 2013, 18:07:39 UTC

More hot stuff... Have such temperatures ever been recorded before on this planet in recent millennia?


Cooler weather brings relief to fire-ravaged Australia

Cooler weather has brought some relief to south-east Australia as fire crews continue to battle bushfires across several states.

Temperatures in New South Wales have fallen more than 10C, after one of the highest-risk fire days in its history.

But scorching conditions are predicted to return at the weekend and new fires are spreading despite the drop, authorities say. ...

... Average national top temperatures on Monday of 40.33C set a new record.

The bureau has added new colours to its forecast chart to indicate temperatures above the previous 50C-limit because of the heat wave.

It said extreme temperatures would continue in Australia for the next week. ...





Temperatures have been so high the Australian Bureau of Meteorology has increased its temperature scale to 54 degrees, and added a new colour code


On such a continental scale, that may well generate one hell of a 'sea breeze'!

What can survive that?...

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Message 1326257 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 2:33:31 UTC

Loved The Documentary Cool It, describing The Efforts of Bjorn Lomborg and Like Minded Scientists in their Quest To Actually Act to alleviate and mitigate Humanity's Climate Follies,

instead of Make Grand Speeches at The DO NOTHING World Conferences On Climate.

PROFessor S. Say: Geo Engineering Broheims, Geo Engineering.


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Message 1326277 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 5:17:20 UTC

What happens next? well einstien@home hit a petaflop January 1st 1/1200 of what

it would take under current estimates predict weather 1 week out.

we will need better tools to effect planetary weather without bad consequences

but this is doable in just a few years.

as to carbon sequestration the Sahara dessert was once grass land and prairy

ecosystems are the most active on the planet sending roots down as much as 30 yards.

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Message 1326364 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 14:54:46 UTC - in response to Message 1325751.  

Note also from that Wikipedia article: Population control

... population control to alleviate environmental pressures need not be coercive. It states that "Women who are educated, economically engaged, and in control of their own bodies can enjoy the freedom of bearing children at their own pace, which happens to be a rate that is appropriate for the aggregate ecological endowment of our planet."...

Does that work in the Muslim world, where women are property, forbidden to own property and their schools blown up? Oh, what fraction of the world is Muslim?

You are very slowly lifting you eyeballs above the sand, and that is a good thing.

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Message 1326366 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 15:09:51 UTC - in response to Message 1326364.  

Way off topic Gary, and the same could be said of ANY religious government.

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Message 1326390 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 16:58:55 UTC - in response to Message 1326364.  

Note also from that Wikipedia article: Population control

... population control to alleviate environmental pressures need not be coercive. It states that "Women who are educated, economically engaged, and in control of their own bodies can enjoy the freedom of bearing children at their own pace, which happens to be a rate that is appropriate for the aggregate ecological endowment of our planet."...

Does that work in the Muslim world, where women are property, forbidden to own property and their schools blown up? Oh, what fraction of the world is Muslim?

You are very slowly lifting you eyeballs above the sand, and that is a good thing.

There are places, even in Asia which back up the idea of allowing women to be educated pays off.

Although not strictly Muslim with only 25% of its population being Muslim, look at Kerala, a state in SW India.

At a population of 33,388,000 in 2011, the state has the lowest population growth rate; 3.44% and a density of 819 persons per km2. Kerala has the highest Human Development Index (HDI) in the country with 0.920 according to the Human Development Report 2011. It also has the highest literacy rate; 93.91%, the highest life expectancy; 74 years and the highest sex ratio; 923 men per 1000 women among the Indian states. A survey in 2005 by Transparency International ranked it as the least corrupt state in the country.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala
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Message 1326687 - Posted: 11 Jan 2013, 15:13:30 UTC

Yet another nasty aside to burning fossil fuels. Not only are we polluting our atmosphere and making the oceans ever more acidic to kill off ever greater areas of life, we are also poisoning all life with steadily increasing levels of poisoning from mercury pollution from mining and from burning fossil fuels:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20972620

... Although coal does not often contain high concentrations of mercury, the authors say the "combination of the large volume burned and the fact that a significant portion of the mercury present is emitted into the atmosphere results in large overall emissions from the sector".

But, they add: "The mercury content of coal varies widely, making emission estimates highly uncertain."

In 2009, nations - through the Unep Governing Council - agreed to launch negotiations to establish a legally binding treaty that would cut mercury emissions from human activities.

Next week in Geneva, government officials from more than 100 nations will begin final negotiations to establish the treaty that could lead to a reduction in global mercury demand by 2015.



Is this not all long ago urgent to act? We already have the increasing consequences...

All on our only planet,
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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