Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Message 1324539 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 11:23:30 UTC - in response to Message 1324465.  

Gary the single article did not address it. Some simple additional research showed the storage capacity at 5MWH.

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Message 1324557 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 12:12:25 UTC - in response to Message 1324455.  

if you still wanted to reach the two-degree Celsius target”.

There is no established causality between CO-2 concentration and air temperature on Earth.

I guess against all science and rationality, you fall into the denialist believers staunchly clinging on as described in the series of articles on:

Climate Denial


Sorry, but Human forced climate change is not just a game of politics... There are consequences for everyone regardless of political games.


All on our only one planet,
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Message 1324588 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 14:43:52 UTC - in response to Message 1324539.  

Gary the single article did not address it. Some simple additional research showed the storage capacity at 5MWH.

Okay numbers. Capacity 5MWH divided by Output 20MW = Time 15 minutes storage.

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Message 1324611 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 15:47:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324248.  
Last modified: 4 Jan 2013, 15:47:55 UTC

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Largest plant 20MW. Single nuclear plant 950-1300MW. I think you have a scale issue here. Also how long can this energy be stored before it all leaks away? Or are you attempting to deny friction. Heat storage has the same issues. Storage as gravity or chemical does not.



When I first saw this post about flywheels I thought that it was for making power. But it is not. Its for regulating frequency on the grid. If what I read about the reasons for going to flywheel storage is that it is faster and green. my take is that it gives a power company almost instant response to a demand for power. It keeps the frquency and voltage up until they can fire up a more traditinal generator on line. its also a growing big business. I have included a link on for frequency regulation
[/quote]

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Message 1324616 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:08:00 UTC - in response to Message 1324611.  

Flywheel Storage There are ways to store electricity, and this is one of many.

Largest plant 20MW. Single nuclear plant 950-1300MW. I think you have a scale issue here. Also how long can this energy be stored before it all leaks away? Or are you attempting to deny friction. Heat storage has the same issues. Storage as gravity or chemical does not.



When I first saw this post about flywheels I thought that it was for making power. But it is not. Its for regulating frequency on the grid. If what I read about the reasons for going to flywheel storage is that it is faster and green. my take is that it gives a power company almost instant response to a demand for power. It keeps the frquency and voltage up until they can fire up a more traditinal generator on line. its also a growing big business. I have included a link on for frequency regulation


And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Even a 5 minutes max load will give big savings to save running up a power station just for every TV commercial break! (Coffee/tea making demand.)


There are many ways...

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Message 1324619 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:30:18 UTC

I think its a great idea using flywheels to keep the frequency and voltage up. Power companys must know when they get the most peak loads during the day. i can see this saving them a lot of money. Not that it will be passed on to the consumer though:(

Another use would be for the home. Im sure it is not cost effective yet but a small flywheel to handle short duration brown outs or power outages befoe a home generator kicks on.
[/quote]

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Message 1324620 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:34:54 UTC - in response to Message 1324616.  

And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Yes get 0.01% closer to the goal, wave you hands claim you have the solution to all ills and scream make it so!

The real problem is several orders of magnitude larger. Can't waste time on stuff that will never matter in the solution.


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Message 1324635 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 16:59:01 UTC - in response to Message 1324620.  

And even if there is only a few tens of minutes storage that can be released, that instant always available release means that big savings can be made by no longer needing fossil power running on hot idle standby, or needing online generators to be run with expensively wasted unutilised capacity to give demand fluctuation margin.

Yes get 0.01% closer to the goal, wave you hands claim you have the solution to all ills and scream make it so!

The real problem is several orders of magnitude larger. Can't waste time on stuff that will never matter in the solution.



the real problem is getting it moving at ALL.. being bogged down by oil/coal is the answer nonsense.

One foot in front of the other starts any journey.

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Message 1324658 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 18:34:30 UTC
Last modified: 4 Jan 2013, 18:49:09 UTC

As some of you have now realised flywheels are part of no-brake power systems, just an alternative to battery UPS systems.

They are not new, and I know of one that was in use from the 60's for NATO comms, and had a catastrophic failure in the 70's. Destroyed the building it was in, along with the standby generator it was working with and several cars and a minibus. Luckily no-one was killed or injured.

You also have to factor in power required to keep flywheel spinning 24/7/365.
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Message 1324674 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 19:14:52 UTC - in response to Message 1324557.  
Last modified: 4 Jan 2013, 19:19:32 UTC

There is no established causality between CO-2 concentration and air temperature on Earth.

I guess against all science and rationality, you fall into the denialist believers staunchly clinging on as described in the series of articles on:

Climate Denial


Sorry, but Human forced climate change is not just a game of politics... There are consequences for everyone regardless of political games.

Don't believe me or the physics and reality?

See:

YouTube: Climate Change 2012 by Peter Sinclair (TED talk)

YouTube: Iain Stewart demonstrates infrared radiation absorption by CO2



They are a good summary of the present state of play for those following Human forced climate change and also good for denialists alike.

One interesting point: How good a fit is made to the Arctic ice extent predictions graph? Should that be a straight line graph or an exponential curve?...


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1324757 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 1:37:18 UTC

A great deal has been posted in this thread about the storage of energy. As nearly as I can tell a lot of this concern is about wind farms making power when it is not needed and not having it available when demand is high. I have never seen a discussion anywhere of using the wind generated power to produce hydrogen gas. Hydrogen is totally none polluting, works in fuel cells, internal combustion engines, and could be used the same way natural gas is.
Since I have never seen this proposed there must be a problem with my thinking but I ask what is it?
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Message 1324758 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 1:50:08 UTC - in response to Message 1324757.  
Last modified: 5 Jan 2013, 1:50:24 UTC

Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to produce it. Unless you use green energy to produce it the caron dioxide released in producing Hydrogen would cancel the green benefits.

Hydrogen has to be stored at high pressures, which makes to containers expensive and heavy.

Hydrogen itself is a greenhouse gas. So production plants would need to be built safely, presumably increasing the production costs.

But ignoring all of that Hydrogen would be a good fuel if it could be made cheaply.
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Message 1324779 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 4:23:28 UTC - in response to Message 1324758.  

"Hydrogen itself is a greenhouse gas."
Um.. Hydrogen will not stay hydrogen in the atmosphere. It will combine readily with the oxygen and make.. Water.
If you are producing it from water, that is a lovely GREEN round trip.
" So production plants would need to be built safely, presumably increasing the production costs.

"

Ballard Power had a hydrogen incident. One of the trucks delivering hydrogen backed into the loading dock and punctured the tank. A fire ensued, panic set in in the surrounding community about this spray that started dripping from the sky, not knowing what it was.

It was in fact water, and once the fire had burnt itself out, they had to put new tires on the truck and DROVE IT AWAY.

Hydrogen unlike natural gas/propane/LNG burns clean, and as we know RISES. So it does not collect on the ground and flow under other things igniting them. Flames/leak goes UP.

Producing it cleanly is of course an issue. And using it through a fuel cell is very interesting technology, especially for fixed site locations. Yet another way to "store" electricity from renewables.

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Message 1324783 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 4:34:10 UTC - in response to Message 1324758.  

Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to produce it. Unless you use green energy to produce it the caron dioxide released in producing Hydrogen would cancel the green benefits.

No CO2 in producing H2 from electricity, as long as the electricity is green. As we are talking about storage of wind power for use when the wind don't blow ...

Hydrogen has to be stored at high pressures, which makes to containers expensive and heavy.

Which is why is isn't good for cars. http://reason.org/news/show/1002886.html
But for a fixed installation that isn't an issue.

Hydrogen itself is a greenhouse gas. So production plants would need to be built safely, presumably increasing the production costs.

Any energy storage needs to be safe. You don't want an uncontrolled release of energy as the effect is catastrophic.

I believe you meant to say leak proof, but that comes with the territory.

But ignoring all of that Hydrogen would be a good fuel if it could be made cheaply.

I believe efficiency is the issue. A fuel cell is very efficient, but it isn't very powerful. Burning H2 to make heat for conventional uses, turbine, steam, internal combustion, ... has all the same losses that other fuels have.


Saw a neat closed loop demonstration a few years ago. Solar cell powering electrolysis and the gases sent to a fuel cell, the combustion water returned, the electricity produced powering a small motor.

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Message 1324784 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 4:42:23 UTC - in response to Message 1324758.  

Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to produce it. Unless you use green energy to produce it the caron dioxide released in producing Hydrogen would cancel the green benefits.

Hydrogen has to be stored at high pressures, which makes to containers expensive and heavy.

Hydrogen itself is a greenhouse gas. So production plants would need to be built safely, presumably increasing the production costs.

But ignoring all of that Hydrogen would be a good fuel if it could be made cheaply.


As for the energy to produce it, wind is very green.
Concerning safety, hydrogen is no more combustible than natural gas.
If hydrogen were used as a substitute for natural gas high greenhouse are not required.
High pressures would be needed for autos not stationary sites.
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Message 1324786 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 4:46:50 UTC - in response to Message 1324619.  

I think its a great idea using flywheels to keep the frequency and voltage up. Power companys must know when they get the most peak loads during the day. i can see this saving them a lot of money. Not that it will be passed on to the consumer though:(

Another use would be for the home. Im sure it is not cost effective yet but a small flywheel to handle short duration brown outs or power outages befoe a home generator kicks on.

I believe the term "phase synchronization" is what they call it. In essence it is changing a cosine wave into a sine wave. Why? When a power plant starts up the frequency/phase of the generators hasn't locked on to the rest of the power grid yet. It takes a little while. If you put out of frequency/phase power on the grid, you don't get more power, you get less. It is a money and equipment saver for the power company.

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Message 1324788 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 4:54:02 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jan 2013, 4:56:34 UTC

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Message 1324812 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 5:59:14 UTC

As to phase syncopation the power converted must be matched to the grid, in order

for things like electric clocks to work correctly the number of cycles a power

plant puts out in a day is strictly regulated and corrected at midnight.

As to hydrogen as fuel the vary small size of the hydrogen molecule it is vary

prone to leaking, it is low density even when compressed and is energy intensive

to make.

this does not mean that it can not be used just that as a source of power it is a bust.

If you have cheap power than using hydrogen as the base for synthetic natural

gas would solve most of toughs problems.

As to power storage / flywheels all power storage has significant loss

but if it is off peak power and has a low cost so what.







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Message 1324822 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 6:53:24 UTC - in response to Message 1324658.  

As some of you have now realised flywheels are part of no-brake power systems, just an alternative to battery UPS systems.

They are not new, and I know of one that was in use from the 60's for NATO comms, and had a catastrophic failure in the 70's. Destroyed the building it was in, along with the standby generator it was working with and several cars and a minibus. Luckily no-one was killed or injured.

You also have to factor in power required to keep flywheel spinning 24/7/365.

I was going to mention these but you beat me to it.

I can remember one of these no break sets failing in the late 1960's. The flywheel went through the wall of the building, the compound fence and 4kM of bush before it stopped. Fortunately it was not in a built up area.

A 3 ton flywheel spinning at 1500rpm has an awful lot of momentum.

T.A.
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Message 1324973 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 16:59:03 UTC - in response to Message 1324822.  

I can remember one of these no break sets failing in the late 1960's. The flywheel went through the wall of the building, the compound fence and 4kM of bush before it stopped. Fortunately it was not in a built up area.

A 3 ton flywheel spinning at 1500rpm has an awful lot of momentum.

T.A.

Any energy storage media has that potential. The uncontrolled release of that energy becomes an issue. Civil engineering. Be it a chunk of metal hurled with the force of a 16 inch naval gun, or be it water held back by a dam, or be it chemical energy in a gas or battery released in an explosion. The effect is the same, catastrophe.

The wave my hands and make it so crowd here refuses to realize the NIMBY's are not going to allow it to be made so, and they are right. Sure you can site it away from a population, but where? In a nature preserve that has to be destroyed to build it? Never mind stringing power lines all over and the NIMBY's that will bring out.

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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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