Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III
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Message 1330195 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 20:03:58 UTC - in response to Message 1330169.  
Last modified: 22 Jan 2013, 20:04:09 UTC

... shouldn't we be trying to adapt now ?...

Yes we should, and the sooner the better.

Meanwhile, we also shouldn't be adding to the problem to make it yet worse and worse for yet longer.

The media rhetoric and hype about all this is worthy of another thread. News publishing or just the peddling of sensationalism to sell 'stories'? Unfortunately, sensationalism anywhere discredits the source story, regardless of the full truth...


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Message 1330246 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 22:20:23 UTC - in response to Message 1330151.  

... Unless you are going to argue circular logic based on CO2 levels I don't think there is a way to get the temperature from a gas bubble. ...


This is a good article, please read and learn and appreciate:


Paleoclimatology - The Ice Core Record

... The ice cores can provide an annual record of temperature, precipitation, atmospheric composition, volcanic activity, and wind patterns. In a general sense, the thickness of each annual layer tells how much snow accumulated at that location during the year. Differences in cores taken from the same area can reveal local wind patterns by showing where the snow drifted. More importantly, the make-up of the snow itself can tell scientists about past temperatures. As with marine fossils, the ratio of oxygen isotopes in the snow reveals temperature, though in this case, the ratio tells how cold the air was at the time the snow fell. ...



Sorry to burst your bubble: The data is still there and remains consistent still, still telling the same story.

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Perhaps you should explain the ASSUMPTION made in http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_OxygenBalance/oxygen_balance.php upon which your data is based. I'll admit the assumption sounds reasonable, but until it is tested it is still an assumption.

I love the graph of temperature in your link. About 17,500 years ago it was 8C less than it settled upon 10,000 years ago. Also note how the data is much smoother in the past as it is only much longer term average then the spiky data from recent instrumented times. Oh that shows just why those error bands get bigger and bigger as we go into the past.

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Message 1330932 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 22:01:00 UTC - in response to Message 1330246.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2013, 22:01:48 UTC

Perhaps you should explain the ASSUMPTION made in http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_OxygenBalance/oxygen_balance.php upon which your data is based. I'll admit the assumption sounds reasonable, but until it is tested it is still an assumption. ...

All carefully compared to present day physics and real-world measurement. The assumption is that the laws of physics have not changed, and that assumption is very thoroughly tested elsewhere in the world of physics for the timescale of our universe!

Thanks for reading and a good question.


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Message 1330934 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 22:04:43 UTC

An example of positive hope for our planet and people?


Climate change Obama can believe in

... The President’s decision to make global warming a key theme of his speech has sparked new hope that the world may be able, at last, to mount a truly global response to one of its biggest threats.

The President sprung a surprise by devoting more words to the climate threat than to any other specific policy, signalling he would make it a personal mission of his second administration. He promised: “We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations.”

He went on to take a swipe at the sceptics and highlighted the extreme weather events of the last year, including the drought and Hurricane Sandy, which, while not directly attributable to global warming, are consistent with predictions of what will happen in a world of rising temperatures – and which have turned many American minds back to the climate question. ...



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Message 1330966 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 23:22:48 UTC - in response to Message 1330932.  

All carefully compared to present day physics and real-world measurement. The assumption is that the laws of physics have not changed, and that assumption is very thoroughly tested elsewhere in the world of physics for the timescale of our universe!

That is one, there are several more ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-18
Assuming that atmospheric circulation and elevation has not changed significantly over the poles
Note that significantly is not defined ...

Also the assumption that the ratio of O16/O18 is stable on earth (not being bombarded by comets or solar wind for instance) is another.

Another being that O16/O18 is uniformly distributed so that say a rift zone doesn't belch a large pocket of one preferentially over another.

All this just makes the error bars bigger.

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Message 1331048 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 5:19:07 UTC

Exclusive: Billionaires secretly fund attacks on climate science

Audit trail reveals that donors linked to fossil fuel industry are backing global warming sceptics

A secretive funding organisation in the United States that guarantees anonymity for its billionaire donors has emerged as a major operator in the climate "counter movement" to undermine the science of global warming, The Independent has learnt.

The Donors Trust, along with its sister group Donors Capital Fund, based in Alexandria, Virginia, is funnelling millions of dollars into the effort to cast doubt on climate change without revealing the identities of its wealthy backers or that they have links to the fossil fuel industry.
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Message 1331122 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 12:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1329997.  

Can oil save the rainforest?

... A walk in this Garden of Eden is revelatory, like going to the supermarket via the chemists' and the zoo. These berries make soap, those plants are good contraceptives, this leaf is good for kidney and heart diseases. There are troops of spider and woolly monkeys, frogs smaller than a fingernail, tapirs the size of horses, as well as ants which taste of lemon and berries so poisonous you could die in seconds if you ate one. Most amazing is the "walking tree" which follows the light, hitches up its roots and moves 7m or more.

Last month, some Yale University undergrads stumbled across a mushroom capable of eating polyurethane plastic. It could revolutionise landfills. "Frankly," says Swing, "no one knows what is here."

It wasn't until he and a colleague from San Francisco University in Quito paddled their way here 20 years ago to set up the science research station that anyone really understood the true abundance of life in Yasuni.

And it wasn't until 2007, when 960m barrels of oil were discovered in one part of the Yasuni park, that people realised that the most biodiverse place on earth could be totally destroyed. The oil under Yasuni, it was calculated, would earn Ecuador $7bn but would last the world just 10 days. ...

... but he also knew it would push the oil frontier deeper into the Amazon, release 400m tonnes of climate-changing gases and make the destruction of a vast and pristine area inevitable. ...

... a unique chance...


A unique chance that is under continued threat from nearby:


Avaaz: Oil showdown in the Amazon

There is one area of the Ecuadorian Amazon that is so pristine that the whole ecosystem has been preserved and even jaguars roam free! But the government is now threatening to go in and drill for oil.

The local indigenous people have been resisting, but they are afraid that oil companies will break up the community with bribes. When they heard that people across the world might stand with them and make a stink to save their land, they were thrilled. The president of Ecuador claims to stand for indigenous rights and the environment, but he has just come up with a new plan to bring oil speculators in to 4 million hectares of jungle. If we can say 'wait a minute, you're supposed to be the green president who says no one can buy Ecuador' ...



Also, there are too many examples of where sudden oil wealth only feeds a very corrupt few and badly despoils the area and the politics of the host country for the worst...



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Message 1332161 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 5:28:19 UTC

Uh oh, models wrong again ... now we know the cause is over population ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/27/scienceofclimatechange-climate-change
A study, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, found that the heat thrown off by major metropolitan areas on America's east coast caused winter warming across large areas of North America, thousands of miles away from those cities.

On the flip side, however, changes in atmospheric conditions had an opposite effect in Europe – lowering autumn temperatures by as much as 1 degree C (1.8F).


"What really surprised us was that this energy use was a tiny amount, and yet it can create such a wide impact far away from the heat source," said Guang Zhang, a scientist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who led the study. "We didn't expect it to be this much."

Just what does that say about the accuracy of the data set used as the baseline for climate warming studies, which assumes that conditions were stable over a many century period when the baseline was recorded?

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Message 1332182 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 7:20:29 UTC - in response to Message 1217267.  

What I hear is that the alarmism doesn't hold true to facts. Even if global waming is true it doesn't constitute 'crisis'. Furthermore, even if this is some sort of a problem there's nothing we can do about it and the price of actual human lives isn't worth the 'correction' prescribed by the religion of enviornmental zealotry. Nothing that proclaims a repair of supposed enviornmental 'damage' can justify the sacrifice of literally millions of human lives on its altar.
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Message 1332183 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 7:27:10 UTC - in response to Message 1225281.  

Ice does NOT RAISE THE WATER LEVEL. LOL

Ice is neutrally boyant! 10% of an iceberg is above sea level. 90 below. The displacement is the same regardless of what form H20 takes. Come on! This is basic physics!!!
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Message 1332184 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 7:30:33 UTC - in response to Message 1332183.  

bump
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Message 1332233 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 14:40:15 UTC - in response to Message 1332183.  

Ice does NOT RAISE THE WATER LEVEL. LOL

Ice is neutrally boyant! 10% of an iceberg is above sea level. 90 below. The displacement is the same regardless of what form H20 takes. Come on! This is basic physics!!!

Ice that is on land, say Greenland or Antarctica and melts does. Basic physics.

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Message 1332245 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 15:25:55 UTC - in response to Message 1332183.  
Last modified: 28 Jan 2013, 15:37:58 UTC

Ice does NOT RAISE THE WATER LEVEL. LOL

Ice is neutrally boyant! 10% of an iceberg is above sea level. 90 below. The displacement is the same regardless of what form H20 takes. Come on! This is basic physics!!!


We've had this discussion about ice. You are wrong.

Even un-melted ice has mass, which DOES make water rise. Drop an ice cube in a glass...
The issue is not the difference between solid and liquid, the issue is this ice was not part of the oceans, and now it is.
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Message 1332249 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 15:44:45 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jan 2013, 15:45:02 UTC

Martin Wrote:


And it's all a question of physics...

This thread has grown rather large and seems to have split pretty much into two main themes: That of climate denial and denial of all physics and science, and that of reporting what is actually happening and what we can positively do.

Hence two threads to continue the argument/discussion:


Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL


Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: Solutions


Positive comments welcomed!

We may yet save our planet from ourselves...

All on our only planet,
Martin
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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