Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1305448 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 18:29:21 UTC - in response to Message 1305439.  

... There is widespread agreement that carbon dioxide content will rise 25 percent by 2000, Moynihan wrote in a September 1969 memo.

"This could increase the average temperature near the earth's surface by 7 degrees Fahrenheit," he wrote. "This in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter."...

Did it happen? ...

Yes it has..

10 foot rise in sea level happened?

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Message 1305484 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 19:13:34 UTC - in response to Message 1305448.  

... There is widespread agreement that carbon dioxide content will rise 25 percent by 2000, Moynihan wrote in a September 1969 memo.

"This could increase the average temperature near the earth's surface by 7 degrees Fahrenheit," he wrote. "This in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter."...

Did it happen? ...

Yes it has..

10 foot rise in sea level happened?

Rather than wild goose chase silly out of context glib silliness, can you get real?

Can you look up thermal expansion of the oceans and sea level rise for yourself and then you critically tell us? With reliable references? Note that wild claims of "It ain't going to happen any time soon" is not a useful answer unless you really can tell the whole world of science otherwise.

Meanwhile, ocean rise looks to be a distraction from the more immediate shifts in weather and climate that are getting to be ever more noticeable and disruptive...


Any other diversionary tactics from you?

Or are you just on a troll's game of words?

Your lack of any substance is most noticeable. Or are you just too old to care?


All on our only planet,
Martin


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Message 1305490 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 19:22:40 UTC - in response to Message 1305484.  

... There is widespread agreement that carbon dioxide content will rise 25 percent by 2000, Moynihan wrote in a September 1969 memo.

"This could increase the average temperature near the earth's surface by 7 degrees Fahrenheit," he wrote. "This in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter."...

Did it happen? ...

Yes it has..

10 foot rise in sea level happened?

Rather than wild goose chase silly out of context glib silliness, can you get real?

Can you and the catastrophists get real?

The model failed.

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Message 1305496 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 19:27:36 UTC - in response to Message 1305443.  

How about an actual peer reviewed paper?
Expert credibility in climate change


PHEW!

THAT is the first scientific paper that I've seen of that type! Unprecedented, for all aspects represented.

Note that Science is a 'continuous argument' and the very nature of Science is that you can never completely know or agree on anything. You can even argue about our very existance and soon dive deep into great thinkers such as Plato and Socrates and so on...

And now for the stunner:

(ACC: anthropogenic climate change)

... Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.

The only "climate deniers" are the paid shills?


and Everything you need to know about climate change - interactive

If you are still a climate change denier you are on the wrong side of history and the consequences are too devastating to ignore.

That's a good interactive to navigate through the huge amount of material that interest in our forced climate change is generating. Unfortunately, I suspect few people have the patience or interest to follow far through all that... Still a good compendium from that publisher.


The same people that ran a huge campaign to confuse the issue on whether smoking is safe on behalf of the tobacco industry are at work here, this time working for the oil companies.

All with the same unscrupulous callousness to kill people for their own profit.


Not all is fair in business, and there are no excuses.

All on our own world,
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Message 1305574 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 22:04:23 UTC - in response to Message 1305443.  

How about an actual peer reviewed paper?
Expert credibility in climate change


First, though the degree of contextual, political, epistemological, and cultural influences in determining who counts as an expert and who is credible remains debated, many scholars acknowledge the need to identify credible experts and account for expert opinion in technical (e.g., science-based) decision-making


Such a shock. Pro global warming publications publish lots of pro global warming articles. Therefor we conclude that man caused global warming is true.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!


Man caused global warming may be true, but this isn't an argument for it. A stupid decision made by millions of scientists, is still a stupid decision.

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Message 1305589 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 22:26:00 UTC - in response to Message 1305574.  

How about an actual peer reviewed paper?
Expert credibility in climate change


First, though the degree of contextual, political, epistemological, and cultural influences in determining who counts as an expert and who is credible remains debated, many scholars acknowledge the need to identify credible experts and account for expert opinion in technical (e.g., science-based) decision-making


Such a shock. Pro global warming publications publish lots of pro global warming articles. Therefor we conclude that man caused global warming is true.

National Academy of Sciences? Really Gary? Are you going to pick and chose what science you believe in what you don't? Based on what criteria? If you get liver cancer would you believe what an oncologist tells you or a dermatologist? Those pesky oncologists with their bias, posting scientific journal articles about stuff they actually know about.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!


Man caused global warming may be true, but this isn't an argument for it. A stupid decision made by millions of scientists, is still a stupid decision.

Listen to yourself. You're not even making sense anymore.
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Message 1305599 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 22:49:40 UTC - in response to Message 1305589.  

Listen to yourself. You're not even making sense anymore.

It isn't an argument. A good editor should have rejected this paper. The paper is better suited to a social science publication than a hard science publication. There is no discussion of how they know the "experts" they picked are "expert." Popular, yes, expert no. No discussion of possible biases in the data set, such as a requirement to profess a belief in ACC to even have a paper considered for publication in climate change journals. No discussion about how the 20 published papers requirement may skew their data set, if the editors believe in ACC themselves. It isn't good science; it comes closer to circular logic than science. Unfortunately it is what passes for science today.

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Message 1305612 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:14:10 UTC - in response to Message 1305599.  
Last modified: 12 Nov 2012, 23:15:00 UTC

Listen to yourself. You're not even making sense anymore.

It isn't an argument. A good editor should have ...

... according to you a "good editor" should have rewritten the science?! Change reality to fit your unreal dreams?

Looks like you're a confirmed devout denier of the world around you. Either that or you are a paid shill here to troll and spread FUD.


Please take your noise elsewhere. You're very welcome to start your own fantasy thread.

Meanwhile, on the real world we still have industry adding to the CO2 pollution and all the consequences of that. Less FUD noise could well let our politics catch up with that sooner rather than later and for the better for all.

Next step is better education to help all with the next pollution problem of too many people... But contrary to the Gary Charpentier world view, no nukes are needed for that.


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Message 1305613 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:17:48 UTC

Why don't you try reading some ice cores taken at the poles and Greenland. They tell a story of CO2 going up and down. Sometimes with the water level and others without water levels moveing at all. Yet, the whole time---life went on.
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Message 1305614 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:25:07 UTC - in response to Message 1305613.  

Why don't you try reading some ice cores taken at the poles and Greenland. They tell a story of CO2 going up and down. Sometimes with the water level and others without water levels moveing at all. Yet, the whole time---life went on.

Indeed so.

Apart from one small detail you omit from your little bit of glib rote:

The life that went on was a very different mix of life compared to what was living before each of those past climate changes...


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Message 1305617 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:35:03 UTC - in response to Message 1305612.  

Listen to yourself. You're not even making sense anymore.

It isn't an argument. A good editor should have ...

... according to you a "good editor" should have rewritten the science?! Change reality to fit your unreal dreams?

Can't even bring yourself to quote it. Not surprised at all.

Looks like you're a confirmed devout denier of the world around you.

I don't deny that it is getting warmer. What ever gave you that idea? Perhaps your closed mind about anyone who isn't in lockstep? A ditto head?

Meanwhile, on the real world we still have industry adding to the CO2 pollution and all the consequences of that.

CO2? How about CH4!

See that CH4 level. It is going up faster than the CO2 level. CO2 almost doubled, CH4 more than quadrupled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
It has a high global warming potential: 72 times that of carbon dioxide


So how are humans dumping that much CH4 into the atmosphere? Shouldn't that be our concern?

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Message 1305622 - Posted: 12 Nov 2012, 23:52:33 UTC - in response to Message 1305617.  

Gary, the melting permafrost in the arctic regions is releasing lots of methane. That is a real concern.
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Message 1305631 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 0:08:06 UTC - in response to Message 1305617.  
Last modified: 13 Nov 2012, 0:11:14 UTC

... according to you a "good editor" should have rewritten the science?! Change reality to fit your unreal dreams?

Can't even bring yourself to quote it. Not surprised at all.

Sorry, just not worth the noise.

Meanwhile, on the real world we still have industry adding to the CO2 pollution and all the consequences of that.

CO2? How about CH4!
http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/images/IPCC2007CO2N20CH4levelsSBI.jpg

See that CH4 level. It is going up faster than the CO2 level. CO2 almost doubled, CH4 more than quadrupled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
It has a high global warming potential: 72 times that of carbon dioxide


So how are humans dumping that much CH4 into the atmosphere? Shouldn't that be our concern?

I like how you are just randomly squirming and plucking at numbers...

The rise in methane (CH4) is part of the consequences of our industrialization and our forced global warming. Note how on your chart the horizontal scale compresses the recent plot points to a near vertical line that is heading off scale.

The forced warming is melting areas of the Arctic that have so far been frozen for many thousands of years and that in turn is releasing methane. So far, though CH4 is potent for warming the atmosphere in the short term, the concentration is about 200 times less than CO2.

Note that CO2 is the more significant in that the concentration of CO2 is the driving factor for other atmospheric processes for global warming. Also, CO2 stays in the atmosphere for a long time compared to methane.


You do nicely highlight one aspect:

We live in a global system and we need to look after and be sympathetic to the workings of all the global systems that keep us comfortably alive. Atmospheric CO2 and CH4 concentrations are the most significant at the moment due to our excessive pollution most noticeably affecting those and everything else connected with that consequently.

Your article leads onto that nicely for those who care to read further there.


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Message 1305636 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 0:18:06 UTC

And NOTE the methane rise every 11 years, sun spot cycle.

And also NOTE just 650,000 years of data.

The latest jump is also with a warming in the Alantic. Off our east coast billions of tons of frozen methane lay in a trench JUST off shore. THIS is a NATURAL cycle of things!
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Message 1305647 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 1:03:31 UTC - in response to Message 1305631.  

The forced warming is melting areas of the Arctic that have so far been frozen for many thousands of years and that in turn is releasing methane.

So the melting ice is releasing the methane? So why isn't that methane in the ice cores?

You are nothing if not predicable in your FUD.

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Message 1305659 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 1:39:16 UTC - in response to Message 1305647.  

The forced warming is melting areas of the Arctic that have so far been frozen for many thousands of years and that in turn is releasing methane.

So the melting ice is releasing the methane? So why isn't that methane in the ice cores?

It is, in small quantities from the past atmosphere for the ice cores taken from the thousands of years of snowfall in the Antarctic.

Going back to what we were originally discussing about Arctic permafrost... That's different ice covering different frozen ground on the other side of the planet compared to the Antarctic ice cores that sample past fallen snow. The areas of Arctic permafrost cover vast old methane rich swamps...

Frozen methane clathrates covers different areas again...


And just to anticipate another hole in your random rants: Arctic sea ice is a part frozen sea water and part collected snowfall. Importantly, the freezing of the sea water expels the sea salt to then make the surrounding sea more saline and hence more dense. That little bit of physics drives the gulf stream right up into the Arctic. That helps to pull warmth from the equator, with the double benefit of cooling the equator and warming the higher latitudes for such as ourselves.

Reduced Arctic ice, and no summertime Arctic ice, may well cause that beneficial process to falter...


Sorry but you do act like a random troll just randomly stirring the pot.

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Message 1305660 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 1:43:24 UTC - in response to Message 1305647.  
Last modified: 13 Nov 2012, 1:53:16 UTC

The forced warming is melting areas of the Arctic that have so far been frozen for many thousands of years and that in turn is releasing methane.

So the melting ice is releasing the methane? So why isn't that methane in the ice cores?

You are nothing if not predicable in your FUD.

Try looking up alternative, older name for methane, then maybe you will understand the ice is melting and revealing thousands of square miles of marsh (hint) which is now thawing out.

As ML1 gave away the answer I can now show this mural from Manchester Town Hall.



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Message 1305681 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 2:48:09 UTC



It's the sunspots---baby!
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Message 1305682 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 2:52:05 UTC - in response to Message 1305681.  



It's the sunspots---baby!

That one was caused by a volcano eruption.
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Message 1305693 - Posted: 13 Nov 2012, 4:20:32 UTC

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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


 
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