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Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
More FUD or what? Easier to let bygones be bygones... Despite the lives of a group of honest researchers being trashed and lives threatened for a year or so. All very nasty. All the more so for being so completely unexpected. But then again, in the world of dishonest industrial FUD, what's the cost of destroying the lives of a few honest people? VERY NASTY. Meanwhile, with floods and drought and human forced greater extremes, expect more of this: US warns of higher crop prices from drought And... We yet continue to SUBSIDISE fossil fuels burning? Good sense or blatant corruption? All in our only world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... And... We yet continue to SUBSIDISE fossil fuels burning? Analysis: Evidence for climate extremes, costs, gets more local (Reuters) - Scientists are finding evidence that man-made climate change has raised the risks of individual weather events, such as floods or heatwaves, marking a big step towards pinpointing local costs... Who pays?... All in our only world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And... It is definitely "us" doing it... So definitely that even an ardent arch-'sceptic' belatedly agrees: Ex-sceptic says climate change is down to humans A formerly sceptical climate scientist says human activity is causing the Earth to warm, as a new study confirms earlier results on rising temperatures. In a US newspaper opinion piece, Prof Richard Muller says: "Call me a converted sceptic." ... ... The team argues that the good correspondence between the new temperature record and historical data on CO2 emissions suggests human activity is "the most straightforward explanation" for the warming. ... ... Prof Michael Mann, director of the Earth Science System Center at Penn State University, said that there was "a certain ironic satisfaction" in seeing a study funded by the Koch Brothers "demonstrate what scientists have known with some degree of confidence for nearly two decades: that the globe is indeed warming, and that this warming can only be explained by human-caused increases in greenhouse gas concentrations". Prof Muller, meanwhile, describes his own change in standpoint as "a total turnaround". He explained: "These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [IPCC], the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming." The University of California physics professor added: "I hope that the Berkeley Earth analysis will help settle the scientific debate regarding global warming and its human causes. "Then comes the difficult part: agreeing across the political and diplomatic spectrum about what can and should be done." And time runs out ever more quickly... The no-summer-ice-in-the-Arctic is going to be a worldwide experiment that is guaranteed to impact us all. And all in just a small few years... And that is just one big change being imposed. And yet we still subsidise the burning of fossil fuels. All on our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
I'm in the UK and yet it feels like summertime in Florida USA... Hay ho? Or "What The Hell?" All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
Feels like Summertime in Florida in the UK, Huh ? I see the girls playing beach volley ball at the London Olympics outdoor stadium all covered up and the sand temperature is at 47 degrees Fahrenheit. That's about 8 degrees Celsius for youse commies. If I were you, old sod, I would seek credibility by coming out for human-induced global cooling. |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
William, to paraphrase the folks at Burger King -- this extensive droughts for you. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
Warmer air will hold more moisture and should have carried a lot of rain inland. Due to global cooling the weather pattern is confused; dumping our water on frigid England and China. Good to be a little nutty at times !! |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Feels like Summertime in Florida in the UK, Huh ? So, you're suffering your old climate and weather confusions again? So... You quote London... Which is indeed under rain and cloud recently. In contrast, take your sample just a few miles further west or even a little north (still in the UK) where we have blazing sunshine in the morning until clouds develop in the heat of the day to then sometimes develop into a 'monsoon' for the evening... So that's more a bite of Florida and India. Meanwhile, London may well still be cool under it's own smog! Still our only planet that we are forcibly changing ever more quickly, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models. |
Terror Australis Send message Joined: 14 Feb 04 Posts: 1817 Credit: 262,693,308 RAC: 44 |
...Meanwhile, London may well still be cool under it's own smog!... I remember reading decades ago (1970's-80's) after London had suffered a harsh winter, that the cause was due to a reduction in pollution. The theory was that the layer of smog that produced the famous "pea soupers" had also insulated London from its "natural" temperatures. With the population changing from coal fires to gas and electricity for home heating and general pollution reduction, this layer had dissipated reducing its insulating effect and thus causing lower temperatures. (Can any London dweller confirm whether or not the number of "Pea Soupers" has declined since the beginning of the 1950's ?) Back on Topic I have never denied that the climate could be changing, it's the "anthro" part I have trouble with. The hysterical predictions such as, the sea level rising by 100 metres, temperatures rising by 10 degrees and the one I love most, "the Earth will reach a 'tipping point' and turn into a second Venus. The list goes on and on. (Some of the links on this page will be broken as the page was produced a few years ago). It is also interesting how some of the studies contradict each other ie. One study will show that "Global Warming" will cause one species to become extinct and another one will show the same species will proliferate.) The classic "We're All Gonna Die" climate change "prediction" would have to be the claim that 4.5 Billion people could die by 2012. A person would have to be living under a rock to consider the Earth's climate as a static system, in even the recent geological past there have been periods where the Earth has been both warmer and cooler than it is now. Actually it has been both warmer and cooler in the last 2000 years. This puts the natural cycle of varieation well within the period that the "warmists" claim is due to the industrial revolution. Finally, anyone who says "The Science Is Settled" is obviously only reading half the data. The "science" is definitely NOT settled, nor do "all climatologists agree". For every paper published on the "for" side the is a paper by an equally worthy scientist saying "Noooo". A few minutes on Google is all you need to see this. There is also some circumstantial evidence that the "warmists" have been cooking the books (climategate anyone?).This paper, released on the 29th of July casts grave doubts on the accuracy of NOAA's US figures. BTW, Having at one time worked on the fringes of High Church Academia I am aware of the fact that scientists can be tempted to "selectively interpret" their data in a way that proves their theory, but never have I seen the amount of blatant data cherry picking, creative modelling and plain junk science (by both sides) on a subject as there is on this one. During my life I have learned that, the more ferocious the spin doctoring and FUD there is on a subject the less reliable the data that it's based on. This is why my "BS Alarm" goes off at some of the alarmist (I could say hysterical) predictions made by the warmist "true believers". Some of these predictions are so distorted that anyone who did 4 years of Science at a decent high school with an equivalent knowledge of Statistics would see the holes if they bothered to look. Just who in the devil do I believe ???? T.A. |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover Antartica was not allways where it is. [/quote] Old James |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover Really? An intense warming phase occurred 52 million years ago, leading tropical vegetation, including palms and relatives of today's tropical Baobab trees, to grow on the continent’s now frozen coasts. Moved from the tropics to the pole in 52 million years? That is an average speed of just over 1 mile per hour. Learn something new every day! |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11360 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Ain't plate tectonics amazing? |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
it didn't need to be in the tropics if the world was significantly warmer. If you look at gondwana land, the Antarctic plate was at a much higher latitude than today. from Wikipedia About 45 Mya, the Indian Plate collided with Asia, buckling the crust and forming the Himalayas. At about the same time, the southernmost part of Australia (modern Tasmania) finally separated from Antarctica, letting ocean currents flow between the two continents for the first time. Antarctica became cooler and Australia became drier because ocean currents circling Antarctica were no longer directed around northern Australia into the subtropics In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover Great mastery of FUD of FUDding there, resplendent with added Disbelief... If you know anything of that part of the world all that long time ago before Humans, you'll note that the Earth was very much warmer and likely warm enough for palm trees all the way to the poles. However, note that those conditions were not conducive to us humans being there then. Note also that if those conditions had remained so, and then we evolved, we all would have evolved for those conditions. We have what we have now. Part of that now has been a beautiful stability in the world's climate for a few hundred thousand years. That has what has allowed us to evolve and prosper. Care to smash that overnight?... Our dirty fossil-fuels powered industry is doing so, ever more quickly. Another typical example for you for your selective FUD: Climate was HOTTER in Roman, medieval times than now: Study IPCC has got it all wrong... Americans sweltering in the recent record-breaking heatwave may not believe it - but it seems that our ancestors suffered through much hotter summers in times gone by... ... Needless to say, prominent alarmist scientists and the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have not taken this view, arguing instead that the well-documented Roman and medieval warm periods may have taken place but either weren't very warm or only happened in limited regions... ... And there is the usual silliness as usual: Take the time to read the comments or the article itself, and you find that the particular 'grand study' is actually a localised study seized upon by sceptics to mislead. So indeed, that one area was a little warmer. That one area however is not the world and the researchers never claimed that. So, yet another example of local weather being claimed by the 'sceptics' to be 'world climate'. All in genuine error and ignorance, or in deliberate fraud by the 'sceptic' trash article? Or all just a ruse by the publication to stir 'interest' and 'debate' for the advertisers? Also note the fraudulent line taken that does NOT include the recent warming trend... And that little graph is just for one special location, NOT THE WORLD as any reader might immediately assume. All very fraudulent in the presentation. An example of a more measured article is: The Summer of 2012 -- Too Hot to Handle? ... This past June more than 170 all-time US heat records were tied or broken--many of them originally set in the historically hotter months of July and August. And with a drought plaguing much of the country, the ground is as dry and crispy as a saltine cracker. By early July, 56% of the contiguous U.S. was experiencing drought. That's the largest percentage in the 12-year record of the U.S. Drought Monitor. Fires scorched over 1.3 million acres across the US in June, reducing hundreds of homes to ashes in the West. ... And again, much play is made there regarding weather vs climate. Ofcourse a single weather incident taken in isolation cannot be claimed to be climate. The whole idea of describing climate is to take a GLOBAL view... And so the supposed 'sceptics' continue with their FUD of selectively taking articles and singular incidents in isolation and ignoring everything else. However, even the sceptics cannot ignore: Of course global warming is on the tips of many tongues. "CO2 is up from 280 parts per million in the 19th century atmosphere to 400 parts per million now -- a 43% increase," says NASA climatologist Bill Patzert. "We're emitting six times more carbon from fossil fuel use now than we did 50 years ago. Atmospheric CO2 hasn't been this high in 400,000 years." Greenhouse gasses like CO2 and methane have higher heat capacities than many other gasses, causing the atmosphere to retain more heat. "The atmosphere becomes a heat source itself, radiating heat back onto the Earth. 85 to 90% of that heat is absorbed by the oceans, because water has a high heat capacity. So the oceans expand and rise. Global sea levels have risen 8 inches over the past 130 years, and the average surface temperature of the entire earth (land surface temperatures plus ocean temperatures) has increased 1.6 °F. These facts," he asserts, "are unequivocal proof of global warming." And there is the direct isotope signature in the CO2 in our atmosphere that directly says we humans burnt things to put all the excess pollution there. And yet the sceptics continue to claim nothing untoward can happen... They just selfishly continue to burn themselves and everyone else around them... All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover Brief summary: usual sceptics misrepresentation ignoring reality. Note my more complete previous comment. All on our only planet, in the here and NOW, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... I have never denied that the climate could be changing, it's the "anthro" part I have trouble with. The hysterical predictions such as, the sea level rising by 100 metres, temperatures rising by 10 degrees and the one I love most, "the Earth will reach a 'tipping point'... And there's the big problem with the unbelievable amount of FUD that is polluting the mass media. There's good evidence that a lot of that is very deliberate and funded by the big fossil fuels companies out to boost their profits at our expense... The CO2 in our atmosphere is directly measured and the isotope proportions clearly show that we humans are pumping all the excess CO2 into the atmosphere as pollution. We are also measurably reducing the oxygen content by the expected amount. (Oxygen is consumed when burning the fossil fuel.) And as for the tipping points, they are very real and act very quickly. An analogy is to consider a heavily laden ship. Add a little more load, however slowly you like, and you get the same very sudden sinking as the waterline floods over the decks. However, for that analogy, add a few waves (natural variation), and you can predict the eventual sinking but the exact moment becomes dependant on which last wave finally caused the runaway flooding of the ship's holds. One 'tipping point' is for the Arctic ice: Ice reflects most of the sunlight and heat. Whereas the sea absorbs most of the sunlight and heat and warms, melting more ice more quickly, that exposes more sea to then warm more quickly to then progress ever faster in a runaway positive feedback process... That's one tipping point that is directly happening now. Once the Arctic is ice-free, conditions have to become extreme for the ice to form again. We used to have ice there that had been there for millennia... There's other examples that releases frozen methane. (Or rather, its only slowly unfreezing so far...) This is our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Moved from the tropics to the pole in 52 million years? That is an average speed of just over 1 mile per hour. Learn something new every day! I don't agree with your arithmetic, but it is good to learn something new each day. Even better is to learn a few new things. Also good is to stay with the here and now. The dinosaurs were a long time ago... This is our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And yet we subsidise yet more fossil fuels pollution: British Gas parent to grab £500m North Sea gas tax break The government has announced a new tax relief for operators of shallow-water gas fields in the UK... Should we not instead be subsiding faster development of non-polluting power?... Despite all the FUD articles from the fossil fuels sympathisers, the USA and UK could easily be self-sufficient and non-polluting. There's an article claiming that is easily doable before the retirement of existing polluting power plants... All on our only planet... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
This past month I used 5000 kilowatt hours of electricity . This was primarily to cool my home against the putative global warming. Peak demand was probably 20 KW. This would be when my ovens were going at the same time as my three Air Conditioning units and a dryer running as well. If you are worried about my gas stove and water heater and furnaces then raise the peak demand to 50 Kilo watts. What can you sell me a solar system for with batteries to meet this demand at night including installation costs and replacement of the appliances and heaters that i have mentioned. The world is on it's ass now due to high energy costs. Stupid, feel good and ineffective regulation and pursuit of more expensive, impractical schemes will only hasten our economic demise. I view such advocates, however well-intentioned, as enemies of the state and anathema to civilization since they would destroy society if left to their own desires--despite their claims to the opposite. For everyone's edification. Recent huge natural gas discoveries in the US and elsewhere have made gas-fired electrical plants now competitive with coal. This should be a boon to the environmentalist kooks. The promise of bringing Saudi Arabia-sized energy amounts to the market via gas pipelines in the near future is a reality. This has convinced the people holding gas off of the market that it's likely that the highest price for gas is right now . Therefore the price is currently driven down. So let's not rail against a win-win situation and let's not let the price of natural gas be controlled by a monopoly, ala OPEC. Another good environmental rant by Daddio |
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