Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


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Message 1217267 - Posted: 12 Apr 2012, 13:40:49 UTC

New Thread, the other by ML1 had grown ominously large.
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Message 1217683 - Posted: 13 Apr 2012, 16:49:02 UTC - in response to Message 1217267.
Last modified: 13 Apr 2012, 16:53:00 UTC

... ominously large.

An apt description for Mankind's industrial activities?...

A slightly untidy thread swap-over, but here's one note to hopefully get back on track:




That's from Arctic Ocean Ice Volume is Decreasing

A longer term view is given on: Arctic sea ice extent over 1,450 years


And for the Denialists "so what?", and for everyone, a must-see article and video: 2011 Arctic Minimum



So what's up with that?


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Message 1217696 - Posted: 13 Apr 2012, 17:08:00 UTC

simply put.. as the ice sheets become a thing of the past, the ground ice will follow. Glaciers dry up. Same at the south pole.

The Alaskan Tundra used to be refered to as "Frozen Tundra"(it was frozen, period.) North Pole was frozen, period. Had been for much longer than humans were around.

It will not be long and the Arctic will no longer freeze. Ocean currents will change, and oceans will continue and accelerate their rise.

Such was the world we live in.
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Message 1217734 - Posted: 13 Apr 2012, 18:26:53 UTC - in response to Message 1217696.

simply put.. as the ice sheets become a thing of the past, the ground ice will follow. Glaciers dry up. Same at the south pole.

The Alaskan Tundra used to be refered to as "Frozen Tundra"(it was frozen, period.) North Pole was frozen, period. Had been for much longer than humans were around.


But when it has been ice free the earth had a tropical climate almost to the arctic circle, definitely at for north as England. Sounds pretty good to me.

It will not be long and the Arctic will no longer freeze. Ocean currents will change, and oceans will continue and accelerate their rise.

Such was the world we live in.


Arctic ice floats to it has no effect on sea level.

As you know the currents will change then will you be so good as to show us what they will be after they change?



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Message 1217749 - Posted: 13 Apr 2012, 19:02:02 UTC - in response to Message 1217734.
Last modified: 13 Apr 2012, 19:14:00 UTC

simply put.. as the ice sheets become a thing of the past, the ground ice will follow. Glaciers dry up. Same at the south pole.

The Alaskan Tundra used to be refered to as "Frozen Tundra"(it was frozen, period.) North Pole was frozen, period. Had been for much longer than humans were around.


But when it has been ice free the earth had a tropical climate almost to the arctic circle, definitely at for north as England. Sounds pretty good to me.

It will not be long and the Arctic will no longer freeze. Ocean currents will change, and oceans will continue and accelerate their rise.

Such was the world we live in.


Arctic ice floats to it has no effect on sea level.

As you know the currents will change then will you be so good as to show us what they will be after they change?




People in coastal areas or under 100ft elevations will certainly disagree.
As I think I said, the artic ice is just the beginning, the ground ice will follow. North coast of Europe, Asia, Canada, and Antarctica will certanly follow. The currents? We do not know. One heck of an experiment isn't it?

Let us see how badly we can mess with the earth before it kicks us all off!

http://flood.firetree.net/
http://flood.firetree.net/?ll=-2.4602,-60.4248&z=12&m=60
Amazon Bay anyone?
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Message 1225215 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 4:26:51 UTC

I thought wind power was the answer to CO2 caused global warming.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137170/Wind-farms-link-rising-temperatures-detrimental-impact-wildlife-weather-say-scientists.html

Wind farms linked to rising temperatures: Scientists concerned about impact on wildlife and weather.

Wind turbines could warm local climates up to ten times faster than the natural rate, a study has shown.

Researchers found air temperatures around four of the world’s largest wind farms had increased by up to 0.72C in a decade. In contrast, the Earth’s average temperatures have warmed by only 0.8C since 1900.

Temperature increases as more wind farms are built may have a long-term impact on wildlife and regional weather patterns, with experts warning that the effects from large farms could alter wind and rainfall patterns.

Scientists at the State University of New York at Albany studied satellite data of the areas around the wind farms, in Texas, from 2003 to 2011.

Publishing their findings in the scientific journal Nature, they said: ‘We attribute this warming primarily to wind farms.

‘The temperature change could be due to the effects of the energy expelled by farms and the movement and turbulence generated by turbine rotors.

‘These changes, if spatially large enough, may have noticeable impacts on local to regional weather and climate.’


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Message 1225219 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 4:33:39 UTC - in response to Message 1225215.
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 4:34:01 UTC

Is that really surprising, if you think about it. When you force hydraulic fluid to do work it warms up, so why shouldn't the air warm up when forced to turn a turbine.

P.S. I am not an expert in these things, I just worked on the electronics and computers that controlled hydraulic machinery.

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Message 1225235 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 5:41:40 UTC
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 5:43:36 UTC

Couldn't resist posting this

wind-farms-linked-to-temperature-rises.

It seems no matter what we do, we're screwed anyway.

T.A.

Edit: Oops beaten to the punch :(

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Message 1225281 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 11:14:05 UTC - in response to Message 1217734.
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 11:16:21 UTC

Arctic ice floats to it has no effect on sea level.


This statement is very wrong on two levels.

1. Ice does not stay ice when the temperature is above freezing, and the water that the ice is in is above freezing. Perhaps we need a science lesson.

2. Ice, even when not melted, even if floating on top of the water, still raises water level, and back to #1: the ice doesn't stay frozen.
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Message 1225518 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 23:34:38 UTC - in response to Message 1225235.
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 23:44:17 UTC

Couldn't resist posting this

wind-farms-linked-to-temperature-rises.

It seems no matter what we do, we're screwed anyway. ...

Good pun there (propeller screw... :-o ) and that is also a very good example of a perfectly sensible and sensibly written article being completely screwed by silly inferred non-meaning to a journalistic ambiguous sensationalist headline.

So, from that article, what of the:

... "The critical thing is that it's a local effect and one we need to understand.

"If you were to use solar panels rather than turbines you would still have an effect.

"The question is whether that local effect is offsetting the generation of power from coal-fired power stations.

"Because fundamentally the impact of carbon dioxide emissions is having a global effect rather than just a local one. ...



So... You have a small local disturbance that mixes the air up a little to make it slightly warmer rather than allowing undisturbed stratification. Or... You have a stupid amount of pollution from fossil fuels power plants and fossil fuels mining and transport of all the muck that instead mucks us all up to a much greater extent GLOBALLY?


So... Local... Global...

Which might be worse/better?


All just a game?

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Message 1225520 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 23:40:45 UTC
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 23:43:52 UTC

And continuing the observations that things are heating up with multiple adverse knock-on effects:


Study finds water cycle accelerating with warming

Wet gets wetter, dry gets drier

Climate models are inaccurate, but not in a comforting way: that’s the conclusion of an ocean salinity study conducted by CSIRO and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which indicates that changes in the water cycle are running faster than models predicted. ...

... supports the idea that with a warming climate, wet regions are likely to get wetter, with a corresponding drying trend in already dry regions.

Durack says the study found “robust evidence of an intensified global water cycle at a rate of about eight percent per degree of surface warming”.

An enhancement of the water cycle, he said, is driven by the ability of warmer air to hold and redistribute more moisture. ...



No surprises there.

What does make for fun reading are the various comments made to that article.


"Waterworld" here we come?

Or is this all a game of the fossil fuels industry and corrupt politics taking us to the brink to then very expensively attempt to 'save' us all from ourselves at the latest possible moment?...


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Message 1225606 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 4:56:44 UTC - in response to Message 1217683.

... ominously large.

An apt description for Mankind's industrial activities?...

A slightly untidy thread swap-over, but here's one note to hopefully get back on track:




That's from Arctic Ocean Ice Volume is Decreasing

A longer term view is given on: Arctic sea ice extent over 1,450 years


And for the Denialists "so what?", and for everyone, a must-see article and video: 2011 Arctic Minimum



So what's up with that?


All on our only one planet,
Martin


Arctic ice floats therefore it has no impact on sea level whether or not it exists. The last time there was no arctic ice Britain had a near tropical climate with rain forests. I assume the Brits are looking forward to it even if the land owners in London are not.

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Message 1225608 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 5:04:55 UTC - in response to Message 1225606.

A great deal of ice in the Artic circle is on land.

Do you honestly have any reason to believe the melting will stop at the shore?

That would be downright gullible
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Message 1225611 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 5:13:08 UTC - in response to Message 1217696.

simply put.. as the ice sheets become a thing of the past, the ground ice will follow. Glaciers dry up. Same at the south pole.

The Alaskan Tundra used to be refered to as "Frozen Tundra"(it was frozen, period.) North Pole was frozen, period. Had been for much longer than humans were around.

It will not be long and the Arctic will no longer freeze. Ocean currents will change, and oceans will continue and accelerate their rise.

Such was the world we live in.


WAY to simply put. Glaciers are simply a ratio of winter snow addition to summer melt. There is no intrinsic reason to think warming will change this ratio. A warmer climate should have more moisture in the air and thus more winter additions than summer melt but of course that is also to simple.

Having only one specific verifiable thing happening does not imply all the imagined consequences which are not verified are going to happen.

Personally I have no problem with Siberia and Canada becoming the breadbaskets of the world. I cannot imagine Sweden and Norway objecting to Florida type winters.

I point out that hard winters include common reports of death from freezing while heat waves rarely have such reports. Cold kills us not heat.

In any event the rational person not only demands evidence of warming but of each and every stated consequence of it without exception and no gimmes allowed.

FWIW: I have been following the hysterical melters since they replaced the coming ice agers. NEVER did they say anything but warming, they never said variable climate until the warming stopped.

Remember you are talking to the guy who owns the palm tree franchise for Washington DC and I am pissed I am not rich as I was promised.

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Message 1225613 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 5:15:18 UTC - in response to Message 1217749.

simply put.. as the ice sheets become a thing of the past, the ground ice will follow. Glaciers dry up. Same at the south pole.

The Alaskan Tundra used to be refered to as "Frozen Tundra"(it was frozen, period.) North Pole was frozen, period. Had been for much longer than humans were around.


But when it has been ice free the earth had a tropical climate almost to the arctic circle, definitely at for north as England. Sounds pretty good to me.

It will not be long and the Arctic will no longer freeze. Ocean currents will change, and oceans will continue and accelerate their rise.

Such was the world we live in.


Arctic ice floats to it has no effect on sea level.

As you know the currents will change then will you be so good as to show us what they will be after they change?




People in coastal areas or under 100ft elevations will certainly disagree.
As I think I said, the artic ice is just the beginning, the ground ice will follow. North coast of Europe, Asia, Canada, and Antarctica will certanly follow. The currents? We do not know. One heck of an experiment isn't it?

Let us see how badly we can mess with the earth before it kicks us all off!

http://flood.firetree.net/
http://flood.firetree.net/?ll=-2.4602,-60.4248&z=12&m=60
Amazon Bay anyone?


People under 100 feet of water will have had a century to move inland. That they are underwater is a consequence of their own procrastination.
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Message 1225617 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 5:19:41 UTC - in response to Message 1225281.

Arctic ice floats to it has no effect on sea level.


This statement is very wrong on two levels.

1. Ice does not stay ice when the temperature is above freezing, and the water that the ice is in is above freezing. Perhaps we need a science lesson.


Yes you do. Back when I was a lad Mr. Wizard demonstrated it.

2. Ice, even when not melted, even if floating on top of the water, still raises water level, and back to #1: the ice doesn't stay frozen.


The simple experiment is to put ice in a glass and then fill the glass to the brim with water and wait for the ice to melt. Your doth not runneth over. QED

Try it and see.
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Message 1225621 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 5:22:29 UTC - in response to Message 1225235.

Couldn't resist posting this

wind-farms-linked-to-temperature-rises.

It seems no matter what we do, we're screwed anyway.

T.A.

Edit: Oops beaten to the punch :(


If you believe journalism majors.

ALL wind energy eventually dissipates as heat. That is called elementary thermodynamics. If it did not eventually dissipate it would be perpetual motion.
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Message 1225651 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 6:27:19 UTC

Oh dear. I'm not even going there. Someone better save us though.
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Message 1225663 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 7:36:40 UTC - in response to Message 1225651.

Oh dear. I'm not even going there. Someone better save us though.

Fingers deeply in ears and the sound of "na na na I am not listening to you"?

What is the point.
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Message 1225739 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 13:46:58 UTC - in response to Message 1225608.

A great deal of ice in the Artic circle is on land.

If you said antarctic I'd agree.

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