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Message 1215804 - Posted: 8 Apr 2012, 20:33:47 UTC - in response to Message 1215662.
Last modified: 8 Apr 2012, 20:39:03 UTC

Well, since you're pulling me off my point, here's your proof:

http://www.theattackdemocrat.com/2011/06/want-to-create-jobs-raise-taxes.html

So let's go ahead and get it back up to 91%. I'm all for it. Proof is in the numbers.

Apparently our mates across the pond don't feel the same way. Let's try to prove them wrong.

not at all off topic when one insists on point out false statements as truth. I in no way want the top marginal rate to be 91%. You do realize that the rate was 91% because industry in America was rebuilding europe. Much of the money invested was directly from the US gov't. Clearly massive profits were being generated. the only way to stop individuals from becoming kings of their own little nation was to tax them back down to reasonable levels. 2-3 generations ago millionaires realized they couldn't take it with them and built libraries, music halls, and even scientific institutions with their money. Now, we have people that insist on having hereditary title and are willing to sell the farm to get it their way. Shame on them.
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Message 1215807 - Posted: 8 Apr 2012, 20:39:49 UTC
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Message 1215829 - Posted: 8 Apr 2012, 21:51:34 UTC - in response to Message 1215696.

Gary, Guy -- is there anyone here who doesn't believe the national and world economic environment hasn't changed in 20 to 30 years?

Globalization means that a lot of work simply moves under world wide corporations to the places where it costs less. Recognizing that costs include factory investment, transportation and distribution -- to some degree local consumption helps local production, but only to some degree.

So you noted Gary, a lot of domestic work has gone overseas. The thing is, with automation, there somewhat less work to go around anyway.

Yes a lot has changed. Some large sections of the world changed to capitalist societies. These places do not have EPAs, OSHAs, clean water acts, clean air acts, minimum wage laws. We also have shipping costs that are very low. It ends up with the USA transferring its wealth, er capital, to others in a way that prevents recovery.
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Message 1215844 - Posted: 8 Apr 2012, 22:22:15 UTC

I always had thought that any nation's economical burden (or debt, really) had to be paid down by the poor people.

But perhaps I am wrong in this assumption?

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Message 1215906 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 0:37:18 UTC - in response to Message 1215829.

OK -- so if the US eliminated the clean water act, OSHA, EPA, clean air acts and minimum wages, everything in the US would return to being a land of milk and honey? Or would it return to the sort of place that Steinbeck often wrote about?

I think there was something very right in the acronym Heinlein used in 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' -- TINSTAAFL. If we eliminate the controls on demonstrable veniality, we get that. A lack of effective regulation in the stock market and housing loan market seems to have demonstrated that.

Or perhaps we should look to achieve the average standard of living obtained today in China and India.




Yes a lot has changed. Some large sections of the world changed to capitalist societies. These places do not have EPAs, OSHAs, clean water acts, clean air acts, minimum wage laws. We also have shipping costs that are very low. It ends up with the USA transferring its wealth, er capital, to others in a way that prevents recovery.


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Message 1215911 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 0:59:22 UTC - in response to Message 1215906.

OK -- so if the US eliminated the clean water act, OSHA, EPA, clean air acts and minimum wages, everything in the US would return to being a land of milk and honey? Or would it return to the sort of place that Steinbeck often wrote about?

I think there was something very right in the acronym Heinlein used in 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' -- TINSTAAFL. If we eliminate the controls on demonstrable veniality, we get that. A lack of effective regulation in the stock market and housing loan market seems to have demonstrated that.

Or perhaps we should look to achieve the average standard of living obtained today in China and India.




Yes a lot has changed. Some large sections of the world changed to capitalist societies. These places do not have EPAs, OSHAs, clean water acts, clean air acts, minimum wage laws. We also have shipping costs that are very low. It ends up with the USA transferring its wealth, er capital, to others in a way that prevents recovery.



Ah another do as I say, not as I do. Did I say to repeal them? NO! Any fool should realize the issue is that they didn't go far enough. They permit imports from places that have no regulations and foul the planet. Tariffs or no trade policies until where they come from implements similar regulations. Or are you one who wants to say how good it is in the USA but ignore humans outside its borders.

There never ever again will be manufacturing in the USA as the regulations provided the impetus to show the markets how to get cheap to free goods. It costs money to build a factory and the foreign government supported one is up and running.

Of course today if you choked off the polluting goods the USA economy would tank worse than the Great Depression. Seems these good intentions paved a 10 lane superhighway to a fabled place.

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Message 1215921 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 1:49:25 UTC - in response to Message 1214192.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/washington-secrets/2012/04/coke-caves-face-democratic-boycott-threat/444346

Ah! The attempt to make voters flash an ID card has now been linked to the Trayvon Martin shooting case.


Suggest you re-read what you linked. Voter ID cards and Trayvon's death have not been linked in as clear a way as you suggest. All that is stated is that there is a group, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), inserting itself into both issues.

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Message 1215937 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 2:32:05 UTC - in response to Message 1215579.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/7/simmons-bill-cosby-weighs-trayvon-martin-case/

Is it the gun? Or the person carrying the gun?


Suggest you also re-read this one.

Mr. Cosby, a Navy veteran, said “the gun” empowered Mr. Zimmerman, whose actions have stirred a firestorm of debate, protests and remarks from President Obama.

“We’ve got to get the gun out of the hands of people who are supposed to be on neighborhood watch,” said Mr. Cosby, whose remarks were the first he has made publicly about the case.

“Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself,” Mr. Cosby explained. “The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations.


I do not claim to know Bill Cosby's entire political mind, but, this strikes me as a Marx-like statement.
And before people get turned off by hearing about Marx, I suggest a number of people have NO IDEA about the entirety of socialist/communist theory. I am aware of a number of their writings that discuss how we have been transformed by the tools we have created; essentially, the tools create something new in us, as individuals and culturally.
WHatever else may be said about socialism/communism, to me, there is a very interesting thought.
So, read again the quoted part: possessing the gun empowered Zimmerman, allowing Zimmerman to commit the act. And what if he had not possessed it?
This point is made, along with the very important point, whst was a neighborhood watch volunteer doing with a gun while on watch, and pursuing Trayvon, when in training they are told not to pursue, and he was also told this during the 911 call? So on and so forth.
Did we not hear recently that even the NRA, which supported the Stand Your Ground Laws, stated "We never intended for the law to be applied to a situation like this"?

“When you carry a gun, you mean to harm somebody, kill somebody,” he said.


I disagree with this statement by Cosby. But, carrying out the above line of thought, it does make it easier for someone who plans to do so to carry it out, or changes the mindset of someone: what would have been different about Zimmerman's actions, without the gun? I speculate many things would have unfolded differently.

In his remarks at the 2004 event, Mr. Cosby pointed out to the audience that blacks had essentially created a new lower rung on the socioeconomic ladder by failing to police their children.


And what do you think about this last part? I think that should generate a lot of discussion.

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Message 1215938 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 2:36:07 UTC - in response to Message 1215579.

The example I used specifically referred to federal government jobs. But my point applies to all levels of government jobs.

My point is, government employees get paid out of some fund generated by tax revenue. So, mathmatically, government employees are not self-sustainable. Government employees *must* be supported by the producers of the nation/state/county/city.

Yes, I know *more* than income tax is removed from your paycheck. Yes, I know government jobs pay *more* than private sector jobs. Neither of these was my point.


Suggest both you and Skildude reconsider what I said. As Bobby's sig says, "I think you'll find it's more complicated than that ..."

Having applied to, and interviewed at, a number of places in 2007 and 2009, what I saw is a great deal of variance. Some state schools pay well, some do not. Some private schools pay well, some do not. It seems that a big factor in the differences is ... what part of the country the school is in.

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Message 1215939 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 2:43:12 UTC - in response to Message 1215938.

Having applied to, and interviewed at, a number of places in 2007 and 2009, what I saw is a great deal of variance. Some state schools pay well, some do not. Some private schools pay well, some do not. It seems that a big factor in the differences is ... what part of the country the school is in.

Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government, so why are you shocked that the pay varies by location, or is this the thinking level of person who is teaching our children today?

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Message 1215987 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 4:16:49 UTC - in response to Message 1215939.

Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government

Scroll up. My paycheck while teaching at a community college (my first teaching position), IIRC, came from the county. But, it might have been the state. NOWHERE in the post you quoted or elsewhere in this thread did I suggest otherwise.
Suggest you not read into posts or, worse, put words in people's mouths. This applies to suggesting that I am "shocked", as well.
What does surprise me is you overlooked "What I saw is a great deal of variance. Some state schools pay well, some do not. Some private schools pay well, some do not", which was the main point.

Happy Easter,

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Message 1216002 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 5:07:11 UTC - in response to Message 1215987.

Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government, so why are you shocked that the pay varies by location, or is this the thinking level of person who is teaching our children today?

Scroll up. My paycheck while teaching at a community college (my first teaching position), IIRC, came from the county. But, it might have been the state. NOWHERE in the post you quoted or elsewhere in this thread did I suggest otherwise.
Suggest you not read into posts or, worse, put words in people's mouths. This applies to suggesting that I am "shocked", as well.
What does surprise me is you overlooked "What I saw is a great deal of variance. Some state schools pay well, some do not. Some private schools pay well, some do not... what part of the country the school is in.", which was the main point.

Happy Easter,

So my point -- it is obvious that a local jobs pay will vary by location -- flew right over your head. You cutting out the part of your own words where you put emphasis via the underline and trying to blast me, well, I'm not shocked.
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Message 1216012 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 5:34:21 UTC - in response to Message 1215911.

Gary, I take your point, we 'exported' pollution, sweat shops and the like and then import the product of that that 'export'. That allows us to live above our earned means on the backs of offshore labor and environmental laxity. We are consumer goods addicts and those goods are no longer made here.

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Message 1216218 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 18:14:19 UTC - in response to Message 1216002.
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Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government, so why are you shocked that the pay varies by location, or is this the thinking level of person who is teaching our children today?

Scroll up. My paycheck while teaching at a community college (my first teaching position), IIRC, came from the county. But, it might have been the state. NOWHERE in the post you quoted or elsewhere in this thread did I suggest otherwise.
Suggest you not read into posts or, worse, put words in people's mouths. This applies to suggesting that I am "shocked", as well.
What does surprise me is you overlooked "What I saw is a great deal of variance. Some state schools pay well, some do not. Some private schools pay well, some do not... what part of the country the school is in.", which was the main point.

Happy Easter,

So my point -- it is obvious that a local jobs pay will vary by location -- flew right over your head. You cutting out the part of your own words where you put emphasis via the underline and trying to blast me, well, I'm not shocked.


Gary, occasionally ... occasionally, you remind me of some people who seek to disagree over a point they are not disagreeing on.
Do we really need to summarize the discussion so far? Will you accuse me of getting Orwellian in my summary?

1) Guy laments the creation of an inefficient (his words, or close enough) government agency that employs people.
2) I ask him if government can create jobs. I also, at this point or somewhere nearby, ask if he is distinguishing between the federal and state/local levels.
3) While Guy meant the federal level, he says he'll accept for sake of the current argument no distinction. Guy does not take the usual Republican route and parrot, who was it, Reagan?, that no, government cannot create jobs. Rather, he talks about self-sustaining ... something I wish to respond to later.
4) I make a point about some of my teaching positions being at state colleges/universities. I mention some of those have paid nicely, some have not.
5) Guy says he *knows* government jobs pay more.
6) Skildude says that, except for janitorial jobs, no, they do not pay more.
7) I clarified, stating they appeared to vary by location.
8) You, Gary, jump into this portion of the conversation. You are, of course, welcome, but I wonder what other parts you read. You take one my points, claim it is your point, and tell me it flew right over my head. Then you say I attacked you, but "or is this the thinking level of person who is teaching our children today" preceded my much tamer suggestion of reading into things.

Gary, I believe you see a bigger picture ... much of the time. But not always.
I believe we all see some portion of the picture. I think we can all learn at least a little from speaking to each other on these message boards.

From time to time, though, I think some of the responses you give to others are beneath you. They lack the dignity I think you usually display, and reflect a narrowing of the view you usually have, which is much wider.

If you really feel my response to you was an attack, let the mods decide. If you feel very strongly about it, feel free to press the red X on that post you believe included an attack.

But I disagree with you.

And it leads me to the latest installment of a "head scratcher".
Elsewhere in this forum, you have either stated, or heavily implied, that you are a Libertarian.

One wonders why some of your most ferocious attacks (when you sink below your usual dignity), have been on MajorKong, a Libertarian, and Guy, a leaning-towards-Libertarian-but-didn't-know-yet-there's-a-name-for-it-other-than-Tea-Party kind of ... "guy"?

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Message 1216225 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 18:34:59 UTC - in response to Message 1216218.

Sarge, regarding what you see as attacks -- often enough the fiercest verbal conflagrations occur between those who share many, but not all views. In part this may be because one person is sure they can get they can get the other to 'see the light'.

I've seen those fierce arguments on religious issues between say a Jehovah's Witness and a born again evangelical.

Where there is more 'separation' there is a degree of willingness to see the other as being from a different planet and somehow beyond the pale of becoming righteous via discussion.

For me, I love the discussions, though there are a few that I have learned to simply not engage with at all.

Just my two cents from the peanut gallery.

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Message 1216226 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 18:36:19 UTC - in response to Message 1215939.

Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government


P.S.-while I suspect you know this, your statement about where the money comes from is not entirely accurate, so let's get some portion of the truth out there.

"Private are paid for by the attendee".

Students at a private college/university may pay up front, out of pocket.
These days (and ever since, what, the 60s), that is less and less likely.
Restricting our attention to, say, only tuition for the moment, some tuition is paid for by loans, including private bank loans, but also by Federal loans. Until the student has paid back the loan, in the meantime, banks and governments have initially "paid" for it. And, of course, they get interest back, as well. Some tuition is paid for by scholarships: private, local/state government and federal.

"public ... [is paid for] ... by the local government"

Of course, I'm sure you didn't mean it, but it comes out sounding like you're saying the students don't pay anything, government handles it all. But, we know, of course, everything I said in my previous paragraph applies here as well.

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Message 1216229 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 18:48:43 UTC - in response to Message 1216226.

Are the schools paid for by the Federal Government, uh no, private are paid for the the attendees and public by the local government


P.S.-while I suspect you know this, your statement about where the money comes from is not entirely accurate, so let's get some portion of the truth out there.

"Private are paid for by the attendee".

Students at a private college/university may pay up front, out of pocket.
These days (and ever since, what, the 60s), that is less and less likely.
Restricting our attention to, say, only tuition for the moment, some tuition is paid for by loans, including private bank loans, but also by Federal loans. Until the student has paid back the loan, in the meantime, banks and governments have initially "paid" for it. And, of course, they get interest back, as well. Some tuition is paid for by scholarships: private, local/state government and federal.

"public ... [is paid for] ... by the local government"

Of course, I'm sure you didn't mean it, but it comes out sounding like you're saying the students don't pay anything, government handles it all. But, we know, of course, everything I said in my previous paragraph applies here as well.

Sarge, you have made an assumption that the school I was thinking of is not K-12. I haven't heard of loans for K-12 except perhaps from grand dad and grand mom.

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Message 1216238 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 19:10:32 UTC - in response to Message 1216218.

Won't quote. Yes we disagree.

As to saying the tea party is libertarian, well, that simply isn't true. If anything they are totalitarian.

When the first of the many tea parties started it may have been libertarian, however when the totalitarian arm of the republican party saw them gaining traction they realized that true libertarian ideas could siphon a large part of their party away, they corrupted the tea party and made it into their image. Now they are just a faction of the totalitarian radical right wing fundamentalist Christians.

Personally I don't see how monotheism and libertarianism can coexist. The one generally calls for strict rules to follow and the other the complete lack of rules.

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Message 1216241 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 19:20:52 UTC

Well, then, I think I see the source of our confusion.
In discussing the government jobs, specifically teaching jobs, I referred to my personal experiences teaching at the college/university level. I do not think I or anyone else was talking about teaching at an earlier level.
At the K-12 level? Yes, I suppose you have a small percentage of private schools (I taught for one, as I originally studied to teach at the secondary level) and then, as far as I recall, public K-12 schools are paid for by the local government.
And how does the bit about differences affect the discussion then? Not sure, since it has been so long since I was focused on finding a secondary level position, for one. Also, I'd start getting into the real of anecdotes even more.
Vary by location? Yep. Absolutely. That's when I first noticed the difference, in the early and mid-90s.
Vary between private and public? I am much less able to answer this. In 1996-1996 I taught at a private school for emotionally disturbed children and teens. I worked only with the teens. It was run by the Methodist Church, IIRC. (No, I am not Methodist.) I'd say for a first year teacher, the pay was fairly(?) competitive? On the other hand, we were there all year long. Summer vacation was turned into 1 or 2 weeks off at the beginning, when everyone else's vacations began, and another 1 or 2 weeks off just before everybody else would return.

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Message 1216248 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 19:33:50 UTC

Lets not forget that state and federal school funding is based on child attendance.
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