American Civil Rights - Do They Really Exist?


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Sirius B
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Message 1202803 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 0:46:14 UTC
Last modified: 6 Mar 2012, 0:46:31 UTC

This is a disgrace! What excuses will the yanks on here give?

UK Pensioner shackled for 23 hours out of every 24

I'm pretty damned sure that some bhl will post about the "Rule of Law"...

Will they prove me wrong by refraining from posting as they know that this is an absolute digrace.

Personally, I think that the "special relationship" between the US & the UK should now end!
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Message 1202809 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 1:15:46 UTC - in response to Message 1202803.

One question -- he was extradited -- did the UK know he'd get this treatment? If so, they could have denied the *request* from the US.

As to American Civil Rights -- well, look at the Patriot Act -- not the best representation of Civil Rights for sure...

By the way, not *shackled* -- confined. There is a difference.

Sirius B
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Message 1202812 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 1:24:44 UTC
Last modified: 6 Mar 2012, 1:25:32 UTC

American Double Standards!

Anyone know American corporate history?

Here's a reminder.....

I.T & T

IBM

Standard Oil

US Government aware own companies dealing with enemies

CIA & Bay of Pigs

Are you all really that arrogant?

Whatever happened to Innocent until proven guilty?

"US Federal prosecutors stated that he will be a danger to the community if released on bail"

[Are you all really that weak & insecure?
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Sirius B
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Message 1202813 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 1:27:05 UTC - in response to Message 1202809.

One question -- he was extradited -- did the UK know he'd get this treatment? If so, they could have denied the *request* from the US.

As to American Civil Rights -- well, look at the Patriot Act -- not the best representation of Civil Rights for sure...

By the way, not *shackled* -- confined. There is a difference.


The UK government were aware after what happened to the Nat West people, yet they still kiss your asses.....

About time that stopped!
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Message 1202825 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 2:30:02 UTC - in response to Message 1202812.

"US Federal prosecutors stated that he will be a danger to the community if released on bail"

Judge:"He is a flight risk."

Is he a flight risk? Did he have to be extradited or did he come voluntarily?

Considering the charges he isn't really fit to be in the general population of prisoners if he wants a long life span, about the same as a child molester to the rest of the prison.

Yes, the prisons in the USA are so overcrowded that the safety of the prisoners can not be maintained.

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Sirius B
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Message 1202935 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 11:19:42 UTC

Terrorist has more rights

"'I won't be given leave to get any of my witnesses who are based in the UK because they are not allowed to testify in America by virtue of the fact they do not allow video interrogation. They have to appear personally.

'Unfortunately they will not appear in America so I don't know. I have certainly got enough facts to support my case but without the witnesses, their testimony, it's going to be very difficult.

'If I wanted anything, it was to be tried in the UK, not in America, because the Americans have never had to produce one piece of evidence.All the evidence shown to the court so far has come from our side.

'They have not had to produce any evidence whatsoever. We believe there is no evidence ... it's just an accusation.

'By virtue of an accusation they are allowed to extradite people from one country to another."
He said this "seems ridiculous and a disgrace to our country".


This says it all! Nice justice system you have!
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Message 1202939 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 12:00:13 UTC - in response to Message 1202935.
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 12:49:23 UTC

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Sirius B
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Message 1202940 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 12:10:24 UTC - in response to Message 1202939.

Sorry Sirius, it's what we keep voting for. (not me personally, but "we" as a nation...)



No problem Guy. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not knocking the US, in fact I enjoyed working with your armed forces in Germany - terrific guys (& gals).

It just seems to me & possibly many others that America seems to have lost her way as the leading light in many areas of life.

If she eventually falls, god help the rest of the world.

All i can see at the moment is that as there is no real external threat (excluding terrorism), many in the system seem to be manufacturing work for their departments - unfortunately, that seems to be the fact of life now in all western societys.
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Message 1202943 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 12:27:26 UTC

With the links already posted, together with the following link, that makes it a scandal every 2 decades - SO, are we to expect one for the 2000's?

Irangate

BTW, isn't the Hawk system obsolete?
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Message 1202978 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 13:52:55 UTC - in response to Message 1202943.

He's 62 and in a county jail in a high drug crime area. So he's in jail with what are most likely Hispanic men who would like nothing better to beat on a white man that looks like the judge that put them in jail. I think he's safer than he thinks. If I were there, I'd punch a guard to assure I got solitary. Solitary sure beats a 20 man ass whipping that he'd be sure to get if he were in general population
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Message 1203010 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012, 14:59:24 UTC - in response to Message 1202935.

"'I won't be given leave to get any of my witnesses who are based in the UK because they are not allowed to testify in America by virtue of the fact they do not allow video interrogation. They have to appear personally.

Right to FACE your accuser. Same goes the other way. Since the first day of America. And how can a person in another country be administered a binding oath to testify? Or is it all his alleged witnesses have arrest warrants in the USA? Or did he choose to spend every dime he had on trying to stay in England and didn't save for plane tickets for his alleged witnesses to get him off? Is that malpractice?

'By virtue of an accusation they are allowed to extradite people from one country to another."

Isn't every criminal complaint an accusation?

This says it all! Nice justice system you have!

Yes it is. It is English common law after all.

This guy's barrister spins a nice SOB story.

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Sirius B
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Message 1205049 - Posted: 12 Mar 2012, 0:08:21 UTC - in response to Message 1203010.

Isn't every criminal complaint an accusation?

This says it all! Nice justice system you have!

Yes it is. It is English common law after all.

This guy's barrister spins a nice SOB story.


So it's now guilty until proven innocent? you'd better change all the US flags that fly & put another star on them....

...UK now the 51st state of the US of A!

Not allowed books or even a clock? Convicted already then I see.....

"prosecutors refused to show statements" Wonder why? Have they shown it to the defence counsel? Ooops, not allowed to defend himself, so what are you hiding? sure it's not your CIA or other bloated agencies looking for a scapegoat?

That wouldn't surprise me one iota!

Chris Tappin Latest
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Message 1205070 - Posted: 12 Mar 2012, 1:17:55 UTC - in response to Message 1205049.

Not allowed books or even a clock?

What did he do to get thrown in solitary? Spit on a guard?

Seriously, when anyone first goes into jail the jail has to classify them. Is the person going to "go along with the program" or are they going to be a "problem." Until the jail decides they err on the side of making sure they don't get hurt and treat them as the worst possible "problem." Now he has been classified and he has his cell and cellmates. As long as he keeps his nose clean, he won't be back in the hole.

Evidence. Once he obtains an attorney, licensed to practice in the Federal Bar, then discovery can proceed. His barrister isn't licensed and can't represent him.

As he was indicted, there won't be a preliminary hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to present to a jury. He had a bail hearing and can petition for more. He probably hasn't been formally arraigned yet as he doesn't seem to have a lawyer. I'm sure the court is trying to find out if he is indigent and due a public defender. Once he has a lawyer things will begin to move forward. Until then it is a waiting game.

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Message 1205114 - Posted: 12 Mar 2012, 9:07:10 UTC

Christopher Tappin was denied bail after prosecutors laid out evidence that they claim demonstrates he was a veteran international arms dealer.

Mr Tappin maintains he is the victim of entrapment by undercover agents for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement service (ICE), who established a front company in the Texas border town of El Paso to try to identify those profiting from selling arms to rogue states and terror groups.

But in dramatic testimony at a bail hearing last week, a senior investigator claimed that silver-haired Mr Tappin provided false documents for 50 batteries for Hawk surface-to-air missiles that they allege he was planning to ship to Iran. According to Mr Tappin, he had no idea the batteries were for missiles and his commission on the deal was a mere £320. However, prosecutors claim that he would have earned $150,000 (£96,000).


These are pretty serious accusations, and if proven true, is likely to mean a lengthy custodial sentence, unless some form of plea bargaining takes place. I have no idea whatsoever whether he is guilty or innocent of these charges, as I haven't seen the evidence one way or another, but it's pretty clear that to be doing what they are doing, the USA believes it has a strong case.

The United Nations incorporated the principle of innocent until proved guilty in its Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 under article eleven, section one. The maxim also found a place in the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights in 1953 [as article 6, section 2] and was incorporated into the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [as article 14, section 2]. It formally entered American law through a Supreme Court decision of 1894, Coffin vs. U.S.


In the meantime he has every right to be treated in a humane manner, as every other accused person is.

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Message 1205321 - Posted: 13 Mar 2012, 2:43:43 UTC

From what I just read Mr. Tappin requested to be kept in isolation and all the accusations about how he is being treated are based on second hand stories. I wouldn't make claims about "American" civil rights based on how one case is being handled.
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Message 1205778 - Posted: 14 Mar 2012, 14:28:30 UTC

Going by the amount of British subjects being extradited to the USA would it
not be simpler if the USA had their own court set-up in the UK?


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Message 1205845 - Posted: 14 Mar 2012, 17:35:35 UTC

It would have no international legal rights to try British subjects upon USA foreign soil. And quite rightly so.

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Message 1205877 - Posted: 14 Mar 2012, 18:44:24 UTC - in response to Message 1205845.

It would have no international legal rights to try British subjects upon USA foreign soil. And quite rightly so.


Not sure of the legalities (Gitmo suggests to me that the US can try foreign nationals on USA foreign soil), though there are practical considerations. One has to be a citizen of the US in order to be a juror in a US court, the pool would be severely limited if the US were to establish an overseas system of civil courts, or the demands on jurors would be substantially greater.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1205888 - Posted: 14 Mar 2012, 19:28:22 UTC

You would need to define "USA Foreign soil". The USA has (or did have) airbases in the UK with our permission. Whether they would have any more legal rights to "try" someone within those areas as against 5 miles down the road, I have no idea.

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Message 1205924 - Posted: 14 Mar 2012, 21:23:28 UTC - in response to Message 1205888.

You would need to define "USA Foreign soil". The USA has (or did have) airbases in the UK with our permission. Whether they would have any more legal rights to "try" someone within those areas as against 5 miles down the road, I have no idea.

Bentwaters!

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