Parents role in Education ?

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Message 1197748 - Posted: 20 Feb 2012, 14:15:24 UTC - in response to Message 1191359.  

Children and knives:

When I was in middle school, early 70's, I had one pulled on me. The other kid wasn't interested in hurting me, just getting me to shut up and get out of his way. I think I had one on me at the time, but I wasn't interested in a fight.

IIRC then you if you just had one, your parents would have gotten a call, if you used one a week vacation. Today just having one will get you expelled. Of course they give one to every kid in the cafeteria ...

What has really changed? Hype by the press.


I carried a knife damm nearly all the time from the age of about seven[ish] AFAIKR never threatened anyone with it, never saw the need to. In my day kids carried 'pen' knives as a matter of course, used for whittling wood, making catapults etc.

Whats changed isnt so much the carrying of knives, its the willingness to use them to harm others. And that the carrying of a knife now they are illegal is seen as some sort of street credibility gaining endevour.

Add to that the plain and simple fact that the law is an ass [regarding knives] its virtually impossible to police.Much like enforcing cycle regulations when cyclists arent required to have number plates on their bikes.. Jump a red light, cut across lanes, cycle on the pavement.. Even when caught on CCTV its too difficult to ID the culprits.. Especially wearing helmets and smog/dust masks etc.. Like the wearing of hoodies by those carrying and using knives in an antisocial manner.

I've had my share of dust up's:-) Have holes in my hide from blade, bullet and blast fragments, and have used guns, knives and other deadly weapons on a daily basis.. But never saw the need to threaten anyone or use a knife to harm anyone as a kid.. That came later as an adult.. In the Armed Forces.

Cheers,


Cliff,
Been there, Done that, Still no damm T shirt!
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Message 1197791 - Posted: 20 Feb 2012, 15:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 1197755.  

Cant say for sure as to the cause, but I suspect the decline in moral standards in the general populace may have some bearing[?sp].

People tend to forget that for many millenia the ordinary populace of what is now the United Kingdom carried weapons of some sort, mainly bladed as a matter of course. Its only since we became 'civilised' or more likely over civilised that those weapons have become taboo.

As I recall another 'civilised' society had similar problems, when it was in decline, although it tended to be the 'upper' crust that roamed about with gangs of thugs terrorising others.. Rome in decline had more than slavery and corruption dragging it down.

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Cliff,
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Message 1197855 - Posted: 20 Feb 2012, 17:34:46 UTC - in response to Message 1196750.  

U.S. Math Education reform is trying to fight the "inch deep, mile wide" curricula. Kids from Asian countries score higher on international comparison tests because they obtain this deep knowledge beginning in elementary school.

US education is a mess, I wouldn't compare it to French or German for example where kids do the baccalaureate. They don't specialise before they are 18, but they certainly cover a good depth of the subjects they learn.

A Mile Wide, an Inch deep.
TIMSS-Third International Mathematics and science study.
Cross-Cultural comparisons of Mathematics Achievement
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Message 1198687 - Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 2:47:43 UTC - in response to Message 1197855.  

U.S. Math Education reform is trying to fight the "inch deep, mile wide" curricula. Kids from Asian countries score higher on international comparison tests because they obtain this deep knowledge beginning in elementary school.

US education is a mess, I wouldn't compare it to French or German for example where kids do the baccalaureate. They don't specialise before they are 18, but they certainly cover a good depth of the subjects they learn.

A Mile Wide, an Inch deep.
TIMSS-Third International Mathematics and science study.
Cross-Cultural comparisons of Mathematics Achievement

Some interesting reading there. Thanks.
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Message 1200418 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012, 19:50:08 UTC - in response to Message 1198687.  

U.S. Math Education reform is trying to fight the "inch deep, mile wide" curricula. Kids from Asian countries score higher on international comparison tests because they obtain this deep knowledge beginning in elementary school.

US education is a mess, I wouldn't compare it to French or German for example where kids do the baccalaureate. They don't specialise before they are 18, but they certainly cover a good depth of the subjects they learn.

A Mile Wide, an Inch deep.
TIMSS-Third International Mathematics and science study.
Cross-Cultural comparisons of Mathematics Achievement

Some interesting reading there. Thanks.


Your thoughts?
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Message 1200448 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012, 21:14:50 UTC - in response to Message 1200424.  

they can't teach in depth because slower students are forced into classes that they are ill equipped for. These students tend to gum up the works while adding to the classes roll call so they can justify a class.

I recall being in advanced classes in High school that a couple of kids were just out of their league. They asked questions about the most simple topics and slowed the learning process down to a crawl. In effect forcing teachers to dumb down the class so that they can say at the end of the year they met all their goals and taught every aspect of their topic when in fact the had to glaze over many thing because of the slower kids.

I am by no means calling slower kids mentally retarded. I am saying that classes could more easily be divided to provide better learning for all.


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Message 1200486 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012, 23:22:45 UTC - in response to Message 1200424.  
Last modified: 27 Feb 2012, 23:24:13 UTC

I agree with the "mile wide an inch deep" analogy. Subjects just don't seem to be taught to the same depth as they were decades ago. Mainly because modern day students cant hack that level of education.

Is it because they are stupider, dumber, or thicker? No it isn't. It's because they are simply lazier because of modern technology.

50 years ago when I was set school homework, it was not unusual that I had to go to the local library to research my answers. These days kids just tap a button and look it up on the Internet. I used to have to use Log tables to work out trig questions, we didn't have scientific calculators to do it for us.

Result? Everybody knows something about everything, but nobody knows much about anything.


You wouldn't, by any chance, be descended from Yorkshiremen, would you? ;-)

Is using the latest available technology really so evil? What use is the ability to navigate log tables when most have a calculator on their phone? Or have access to a spreadsheet? I remember from my school days, going to an RAF base to transcribe meteorological data for a geography project, then plotting the data onto a graph. A time consuming and mind boggingly dull task. Today, in the time I spent doing that, I could download raw data from multiple sources into a spreadsheet and be able to slice and dice that data over a hundred ways. Leading to, in all likelihood, a deeper understanding of the subject matter.

I think I learned one valuable lesson from that project. The value of good data.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1200551 - Posted: 28 Feb 2012, 7:43:19 UTC - in response to Message 1200486.  

I agree with the "mile wide an inch deep" analogy. Subjects just don't seem to be taught to the same depth as they were decades ago. Mainly because modern day students cant hack that level of education.

Is it because they are stupider, dumber, or thicker? No it isn't. It's because they are simply lazier because of modern technology.

50 years ago when I was set school homework, it was not unusual that I had to go to the local library to research my answers. These days kids just tap a button and look it up on the Internet. I used to have to use Log tables to work out trig questions, we didn't have scientific calculators to do it for us.

Result? Everybody knows something about everything, but nobody knows much about anything.


You wouldn't, by any chance, be descended from Yorkshiremen, would you? ;-)

Is using the latest available technology really so evil? What use is the ability to navigate log tables when most have a calculator on their phone? Or have access to a spreadsheet? I remember from my school days, going to an RAF base to transcribe meteorological data for a geography project, then plotting the data onto a graph. A time consuming and mind boggingly dull task. Today, in the time I spent doing that, I could download raw data from multiple sources into a spreadsheet and be able to slice and dice that data over a hundred ways. Leading to, in all likelihood, a deeper understanding of the subject matter.

I think I learned one valuable lesson from that project. The value of good data.

I think there is a basic problem with your argument, you were taught and understand the ground rules, the present day generation for the most part do not.
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Message 1200639 - Posted: 28 Feb 2012, 13:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 1200551.  
Last modified: 28 Feb 2012, 13:39:41 UTC

I agree with the "mile wide an inch deep" analogy. Subjects just don't seem to be taught to the same depth as they were decades ago. Mainly because modern day students cant hack that level of education.

Is it because they are stupider, dumber, or thicker? No it isn't. It's because they are simply lazier because of modern technology.

50 years ago when I was set school homework, it was not unusual that I had to go to the local library to research my answers. These days kids just tap a button and look it up on the Internet. I used to have to use Log tables to work out trig questions, we didn't have scientific calculators to do it for us.

Result? Everybody knows something about everything, but nobody knows much about anything.


You wouldn't, by any chance, be descended from Yorkshiremen, would you? ;-)

Is using the latest available technology really so evil? What use is the ability to navigate log tables when most have a calculator on their phone? Or have access to a spreadsheet? I remember from my school days, going to an RAF base to transcribe meteorological data for a geography project, then plotting the data onto a graph. A time consuming and mind boggingly dull task. Today, in the time I spent doing that, I could download raw data from multiple sources into a spreadsheet and be able to slice and dice that data over a hundred ways. Leading to, in all likelihood, a deeper understanding of the subject matter.

I think I learned one valuable lesson from that project. The value of good data.

I think there is a basic problem with your argument, you were taught and understand the ground rules, the present day generation for the most part do not.


The basic problem with my previous post, and one I typically note, is that it's an anecdote. As for the "present day generation", I'm sure that, as your point is one supported by a few other posters here, there must be plenty of evidence to support it. Sadly, I don't think any links to said data have been posted.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1200874 - Posted: 29 Feb 2012, 6:47:41 UTC

Not necessarily proof that education standards in the UK are falling, but pretty damned certain when the politicians manage to recognise the fact and order exams to be made tougher. GCSE's are nominally taken by 16 year olds, the official school leaving age in UK.

GCSEs in four key subjects to be made tougher
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Message 1201639 - Posted: 2 Mar 2012, 8:33:54 UTC

Another group call for better maths skills.

Poor numeracy 'blights the economy and ruins lives'
Poor numeracy is blighting Britain's economic performance and ruining lives, says a new charity launched to champion better maths skills.

The group, National Numeracy, says millions of people struggle to understand a payslip or a train timetable, or pay a household bill.

Government figures show almost half the working population of England have only primary school maths skills.

A government spokeswoman said poor numeracy was a national scandal.

The new organisation quotes from research which suggest that weak maths skills are linked with an array of poor life outcomes such as prison, unemployment, exclusion from school, poverty and long-term illness.
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Message 1206531 - Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 8:22:38 UTC
Last modified: 16 Mar 2012, 8:23:12 UTC

IMO the low standards highlighted by the news stories is that most students today are taught to pass the exam, not the subject. And that because most courses are modular the students in a lot of cases do not need to commit the module to long term memory because they will not get a question on it in a final exam several years down the track.
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Message 1213464 - Posted: 3 Apr 2012, 3:26:17 UTC
Last modified: 3 Apr 2012, 3:36:01 UTC

Will this be the shake-up that A-level's need to get students ready for university.

University dons take charge in exams shake-up

edit] also Michael Gove calls on watchdog to let universities set A-level examinations

My 1960's A levels where set by Oxford and Cambridge boards. English, Applied Maths and Physics from the Cambridge board and Pure Maths by the Oxford board. The reason, I was told by maths teacher, was because both boards would only allow you to do either pure or applied not both.
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Message 1216321 - Posted: 9 Apr 2012, 22:53:27 UTC - in response to Message 1191767.  

Shouldn't there be a class for parents:

How to deal with the fact your DNA makes morons?


Quite agree & here's a case in point as to why that is needed....

Students trash ferry

AND both universities say "no comment?" What a disgrace!
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Message 1217300 - Posted: 12 Apr 2012, 15:50:58 UTC
Last modified: 12 Apr 2012, 15:51:24 UTC

I know this link is not strickly education but just had to post it. Especially as most years in my experience GCSE History is about the first half of the 20th century.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/titanic-anniversary/9199970/Twitter-users-thought-Titanic-disaster-was-just-a-film-plot.html
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Message 1217308 - Posted: 12 Apr 2012, 16:09:45 UTC - in response to Message 1217300.  

I know this link is not strickly education but just had to post it. Especially as most years in my experience GCSE History is about the first half of the 20th century.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/titanic-anniversary/9199970/Twitter-users-thought-Titanic-disaster-was-just-a-film-plot.html


Yes it is education! It's educating us to the "horrors" of today's youth. Not interested in reading/writing, much prefer SMS education...

Aw wight, got tat chum?
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Message 1217324 - Posted: 12 Apr 2012, 17:08:33 UTC - in response to Message 1217311.  

It is still partly relevant here though because it just goes to underline how moronic some teenagers are these days. The 100 year anniversary has been mentioned across the press for weeks, but of course most of them would struggle to read more than the second paragraph on page 1. I'm not at all surprised by this report, just confirms yet again my view that mainstream education is failing and that parents are next to useless at bringing up kids.

At the moment there is a population explosion in South London and you can't move for young women pushing buggys with babies. And you'd be hard pushed to see a wedding or engagement ring on any of them, or hear much more than 1/2 a dozen vaguely joined up syllables while they natter to their mobile.

Whatever happened to Family Planning? These days it seems to be a one night stand after the pub on a Saturday night, with jack the lad doing a runner later. What chance have teachers got against that sort of background? Perhaps we should consider the 1 child regime they have in China, at least it would save on the school building program.


population explosion
Because with Child Tax Credits, or if they work part time, Working Tax Credits, they have a guarenteed income higher than they could possibly earn if they worked full time. Plus they get council housing, so they can invite anyone they like in without parental control.
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Message 1218219 - Posted: 14 Apr 2012, 12:54:52 UTC - in response to Message 1217343.  
Last modified: 14 Apr 2012, 12:57:02 UTC

Hi WK. There is certainly a section of female society that view having kids as a meal ticket. The Council house them, and the Social put money in their pocket. If the errant father gives a few bob here and there that is a bonus. OK it's a grade C life with a screaming kid, but it's better that working for a living stacking shelves in a supermarket.

There is also an added dimension to this as well. Many young women see having kids as an insurance policy for their old age. It's not likely this government will do anything for me when I get old they say, but if I've got a couple of kids, at least I've got some chance of being looked after when I can't manage.

It's a whole vicious circle that just carries on ...


"There is certainly" does not sound to me like opinion. Chris, do you have any evidence to support this view of "a section of female society"?

As for the "teenagers" and Titanic, did the Telegraph researchers establish the ages of the tweeters? Did they establish their location? [ETA] One of them appears to be US based, and I don't believe we've had quite the media saturation that you mention. [/ETA]

As for education failing them, what is the historical significance of the Titanic to anybody other than cruise ship designers and friends and relatives of those directly involved in the accident? While the sinking of this ship may have been one of the largest peacetime accidents at sea, imho that does not make it required learning at school.

I will concede one thing appears to be in evidence from the tweets, and that is a lack of ability to judge the merits of movies, the tweets say "just a movie" and "just a film", no mention of how bad it was ;-), and lack comparisons with the, to my mind, superior "A Night to Remember". Perhaps film studies has some merit after all ...
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1218250 - Posted: 14 Apr 2012, 14:35:59 UTC

Hee! Hee!

Over to you Chris!!!
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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