Parents role in Education ?


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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 1300230 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 15:24:40 UTC - in response to Message 1300216.

Where's that mean the future is heading?

Put me in front of the telly and send me my check, I'm entitled!

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Message 1300236 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 15:47:30 UTC
Last modified: 29 Oct 2012, 16:00:12 UTC

Put me in front of the telly and send me my check, I'm entitled!

Yes M'Lord. Would Sir care for an aperitif?

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Message 1300246 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 16:02:06 UTC - in response to Message 1300135.

I feel you have missed a point or two here. The linked article was about 16 to 18 year olds applying for a fairly prodigious apprenticeship. That to me looks like those not wishing to go on through the "A" level system.

As other firms and organisations also offer apprenticeships at this age. BAe, RR, McLaren and the Armed Forces are known personally to me in this area. All the technicians and engineers in these firms will use and therefore must know how to use logarithms.

Therefore to me I cannot see why, just because we have calculators, that logarithms were dropped from pre-16's education.

And I have also worked in places where all personal electronic devices are banned, including electrical powered watches. For the safety of the equipment and personnel, and for security.

Try taking your phone into a company that chooses to keep things secret from it's competitors. In a lot of cases this is the preferred route rather than patents. Because with patents you have to tell the world what you know, and they also have a lifespan.

I never put a value judgement in my post about what I thought of this, I just gave reasons for the discrepancy.

I didn't miss a point, my point was that times have changed, the GCSE was designed (and constantly re-designed every. damn. year.) to be a one size fits all exam. You can't really compare it completely with the old 'O' level because the two were quite different.

The questions were about standards. I am not sure if the standards are better or worse. I do know they are different and designed for different times.

Your point is valid that there are instances that we must know how to work without a calculator. However, is that actually necessary for the general population? Such industry specific skills should maybe be taught as part of that apprenticeship now.

Times change. Needs change. It's not the 1960s now. I am quite sure that when you studied science there was no part of the syllabus on digital technology. Well there is now.
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Message 1300249 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 16:08:55 UTC - in response to Message 1300198.

.
Lets just put it this way, I have a long time friend who has a fairly recent partner who teaches a subject I have never studied. I sat one of the exams in their kitchen one Sunday morning and got 76%, enough for a "B" pass.

As you probably should. These exams are aimed at 16 year olds. Right now I am doing a university level philosophy of education course. Most of my fellow students are in there early 20s. I feel at a huge advantage because I know stuff. Stuff I certainly didn't know when I was in my early 20s.
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Message 1300250 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 16:12:33 UTC - in response to Message 1300216.

I know people who run small businesses who wont employ anyone under 21, and are even wary of those under 30. And I don't blame them one bit!


I can agree here. My peers and those younger than me seem to be largely unemployable (The reasons are many and it's an issue that goes far beyond education). I also remember how hard it was landing my first real jobs, due to my age. I haven't job-searched since I was 18 however and expect I'd have better luck now in my 30's.

But it really is something, everyone talks about the economy and lack of jobs, yet we have some jobs at my company and have trouble finding proper help, I still have little job competition even today. And this is factory work I'm talking about here. Many young Americans do not possess the skills or motivation necessary for even simple math and some hard work. Where's that mean the future is heading?

I understood that that no one wants to employ that generation because there is a lack of work ethic and a sense of entitlement. I've even had run ins here in Canada with students who don't understand why I get upset when they turn up late, wander in and out of class and try to use their phones in class. They actually seem genuinely surprised that I consider these behaviours extremely poor manners. These are 18 to 20 year olds who should know better.
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Message 1300251 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 16:15:04 UTC

Times change. Needs change. It's not the 1960s now. I am quite sure that when you studied science there was no part of the syllabus on digital technology. Well there is now.

Yes of course times move on, and yes of course the contents of the syllabus need to change to reflect that. But I do have one advantage over you that I was on the receiving end in the 50's and 60's, plus being on the delivery end in the 2010's. It did seem to work better back then for many reasons.

Then again, you have the advantage over me in having taught in the UK, and now in Western Canada. How do you find the ethos of North American students compared to the UK ones?


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Message 1300347 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 20:08:27 UTC - in response to Message 1300220.

Where's that mean the future is heading?

In a downward spiral. Worries the heck outta me .....



Another problem which is mainly due to the Digital Age we live & that's easy access without understanding. Everything must work straight away, even the simplist things must work & when they don't, panic sets in without any thought of Why?

Case in point: - My mobile rang at 21:27 last night. Their desktop kept rebooting & a fairly large print run had to be done for return to university today.

It took 31 minutes to talk them through connecting a USB Printer Cable & using Add a Printer to their laptop.

They still didn't get it right so received a call very early this morning with a request to come & fix it. Done that & gave them a nice invoice.

This was a university law student & it's not the only case of this i've come across.

This makes me despair.
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Message 1300355 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 20:33:30 UTC - in response to Message 1300246.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2012, 20:40:40 UTC

So how do you explain the differences in the strength of earthquakes like the one you have just had, without knowledge of Logs?

At the moment over 80% of the school leaving population will not understand because they don't do "A" level maths.

Or sound differences.
And how will they know what the figures mean on a hifi amp, such as Frequency response, max noise level, channel separation all expressed in dB.


Edit] Digital technology, well that was trade related, so 1962. So not a fair answer.

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Message 1300368 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 21:36:48 UTC - in response to Message 1300355.

So how do you explain the differences in the strength of earthquakes like the one you have just had, without knowledge of Logs?

At the moment over 80% of the school leaving population will not understand because they don't do "A" level maths.

Or sound differences.
And how will they know what the figures mean on a hifi amp, such as Frequency response, max noise level, channel separation all expressed in dB.


Edit] Digital technology, well that was trade related, so 1962. So not a fair answer.


While arithmetic with log may not be part of GCSE, it may be that exponential rates of change are (like a graph of y = x^2). The principle is essentially the same.

Knowing that dB uses a base 10 logarithmic scale as it's basis, is not helpful when trying to understand the details of the scale without additional information. An increase of 3 dB is not equal to an increase by a multiple of 1000 of anything, as dB is computed as 10xlog(power ratio), which makes an increase of 3 dB equivalent to about a doubling of the power ratio, which in itself is pretty meaningless without an understanding that IIRC the human ear has trouble discerning broad spectrum changes of less than 2dB.

Conversely, the Richter scale is a straight base 10 logarithmic scale, so an increase of .3 is equivalent to about a doubling of the energy.

What percentage of any given population finds such details useful in their day to day activity I have no idea. The good news is that it's all out there on the internet ready for anybody with an interest to look it up.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1300381 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 22:19:50 UTC - in response to Message 1300355.

So how do you explain the differences in the strength of earthquakes like the one you have just had, without knowledge of Logs?

At the moment over 80% of the school leaving population will not understand because they don't do "A" level maths.

Or sound differences.
And how will they know what the figures mean on a hifi amp, such as Frequency response, max noise level, channel separation all expressed in dB.


Edit] Digital technology, well that was trade related, so 1962. So not a fair answer.

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

Here, this TES article from 2009 might throw some more light on the matter:
Myth: Standards rise is just exams getting easier

* In 1959, around 9 per cent of 16-year-olds got five or more O-levels. In 2009, the proportion gaining five or more GCSEs was 70 per cent.
* Essay titles in the English O-level paper in 1959 included “Pleasures of life in a large town”, “Washing day” and “Coach tours”.
* Essay titles in the 2009 OCR English GCSE included: “How do you present different images of yourself in different situations and why do you do so?”
* A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.
* An examiners’ report on O-level English literature in 1956 noted that “whole groups are entered in which no more than a quarter have any chance of passing”.


I wonder if a lot of this debate is due to selective memory?

For example, I remember that the music back in the 70s used to be way better than the crap they have in the charts today. I am sure most of you would agree!

However, last summer we went on a 6 hours drive to visit relatives and mr99 had downloaded all the actual chart hits from the entire 1970s to listen to in our journey. "What a treat!" you might think, "finally, we can bathe our ears in some quality music performed in a much better time when music was clearly of a higher standard!"

6 hours of the most awful, awful soul destroying pap. Songs I had wilfully forgotten had ever been written and hope to never listen to again. I think we wore out the skip button on the car radio in between moments of WTF was that? There were a few songs of notable quality that you could probably name for me now, but I am sure like me, you've forgotten the reality of how awful most of the music was in the 70s.

So the question is, are standards really any different and can one quick math test even hope to settle that question?

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Message 1300383 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 22:30:38 UTC

A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.

Total garbage. Show me the proof.

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Message 1300384 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 22:32:57 UTC - in response to Message 1300383.

A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.

Total garbage. Show me the proof.



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Message 1300385 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 22:38:21 UTC - in response to Message 1300381.

However, last summer we went on a 6 hours drive to visit relatives and mr99 had downloaded all the actual chart hits from the entire 1970s to listen to in our journey. "What a treat!" you might think, "finally, we can bathe our ears in some quality music performed in a much better time when music was clearly of a higher standard!"

6 hours of the most awful, awful soul destroying pap. Songs I had wilfully forgotten had ever been written and hope to never listen to again. I think we wore out the skip button on the car radio in between moments of WTF was that? There were a few songs of notable quality that you could probably name for me now, but I am sure like me, you've forgotten the reality of how awful most of the music was in the 70s.

Disco Duck

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Message 1300387 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 22:55:51 UTC - in response to Message 1300381.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2012, 23:01:06 UTC

Myths;
In 1959, around 9 per cent of 16-year-olds got five or more O-levels. In 2009, the proportion gaining five or more GCSEs was 70 per cent.

Unfair comparison, as most kids, at least 80%, went to secondary modern schools and left at 15, so never even got entered for exam.
Plus as noted before, by several people, the examination system was different. How many would pass today if it was a single 3 hour exam and the results were normalised, as they were then.

edit] A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.

That could be down to methods and terminology. A complaint I recently saw for an over 50's maths module was they didn't understand the terminology. They did know how to do the problems when translated into their maths language. Think mean and average, etc.

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Message 1300391 - Posted: 29 Oct 2012, 23:04:32 UTC - in response to Message 1300381.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2012, 23:04:57 UTC

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

So now they are teaching things in science before the students have gained the required maths. Does not look good from my perspective.

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Message 1300415 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 1:58:07 UTC - in response to Message 1300387.

Myths;
In 1959, around 9 per cent of 16-year-olds got five or more O-levels. In 2009, the proportion gaining five or more GCSEs was 70 per cent.

Unfair comparison, as most kids, at least 80%, went to secondary modern schools and left at 15, so never even got entered for exam.
Plus as noted before, by several people, the examination system was different. How many would pass today if it was a single 3 hour exam and the results were normalised, as they were then.

edit] A recent survey showed that most 55- to 65-year-olds lack the maths skills expected of a nine-year-old today.

That could be down to methods and terminology. A complaint I recently saw for an over 50's maths module was they didn't understand the terminology. They did know how to do the problems when translated into their maths language. Think mean and average, etc.

That could also be the converse too, kids doing the 1960s test today may have trouble with the terminology too.
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Message 1300417 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 1:58:31 UTC - in response to Message 1300391.

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

So now they are teaching things in science before the students have gained the required maths. Does not look good from my perspective.

Lol. That's always been the case.
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Message 1300474 - Posted: 30 Oct 2012, 7:58:13 UTC - in response to Message 1300417.

Those things are on the GCSE science syllabus if that helps, so they should be aware of the idea of a logarithmic scale, they just can't manipulate logs.

So now they are teaching things in science before the students have gained the required maths. Does not look good from my perspective.

Lol. That's always been the case.

Maybe for public services, but when the student or his employer are paying, no.

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Message 1301029 - Posted: 1 Nov 2012, 17:48:23 UTC - in response to Message 1300368.

So how do you explain the differences in the strength of earthquakes like the one you have just had, without knowledge of Logs?

At the moment over 80% of the school leaving population will not understand because they don't do "A" level maths.

Or sound differences.
And how will they know what the figures mean on a hifi amp, such as Frequency response, max noise level, channel separation all expressed in dB.


Edit] Digital technology, well that was trade related, so 1962. So not a fair answer.


While arithmetic with log may not be part of GCSE, it may be that exponential rates of change are (like a graph of y = x^2). The principle is essentially the same.

Knowing that dB uses a base 10 logarithmic scale as it's basis, is not helpful when trying to understand the details of the scale without additional information. An increase of 3 dB is not equal to an increase by a multiple of 1000 of anything, as dB is computed as 10xlog(power ratio), which makes an increase of 3 dB equivalent to about a doubling of the power ratio, which in itself is pretty meaningless without an understanding that IIRC the human ear has trouble discerning broad spectrum changes of less than 2dB.

Conversely, the Richter scale is a straight base 10 logarithmic scale, so an increase of .3 is equivalent to about a doubling of the energy.

What percentage of any given population finds such details useful in their day to day activity I have no idea. The good news is that it's all out there on the internet ready for anybody with an interest to look it up.

Bob's example here is very worthy for I studied all this many-many years ago
but never needed it once studied. Yet upon reading his post here I had
absolutely no problem in following plus fully understanding the technicalities
held within.


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Message 1301032 - Posted: 1 Nov 2012, 18:00:11 UTC - in response to Message 1300385.

However, last summer we went on a 6 hours drive to visit relatives and mr99 had downloaded all the actual chart hits from the entire 1970s to listen to in our journey. "What a treat!" you might think, "finally, we can bathe our ears in some quality music performed in a much better time when music was clearly of a higher standard!"

6 hours of the most awful, awful soul destroying pap. Songs I had wilfully forgotten had ever been written and hope to never listen to again. I think we wore out the skip button on the car radio in between moments of WTF was that? There were a few songs of notable quality that you could probably name for me now, but I am sure like me, you've forgotten the reality of how awful most of the music was in the 70s.

Disco Duck

Gary!! no-no-no...the 70's was brilliant for it's disco music and has never
been beaten. I ran a disco outfit from 1974 through to 1983 and the only time
Disco Duck ever got played was for kiddies do's...it never got played
in the big club functions...god!! you'd get laughed out of the club if you did.



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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

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