Parents role in Education ?


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Profile Sarge
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Message 1302387 - Posted: 5 Nov 2012, 4:21:33 UTC - in response to Message 1302351.
Last modified: 5 Nov 2012, 4:21:52 UTC

bobby,

My latest avatar is from a vintage video game.

Qbert lived in a world where the force of gravity came from three directions and when he spoke, he spoke in an alien language.

You, being the NARW type of person you are, are hearing the sounds of Qbert from me.

We cannot communicate because I apparently speak an unknown alien language to you.


I hope my Appalachin was close enough to Texan to make sense to you. ;)
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=66639&postid=1302370.
P.S.-glad to see you finally posted a pic of yourself. It was really hard to believe you resembled Mr. T. As QBert, indeed, I do now hate you because you're sexier than me.

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Message 1302469 - Posted: 5 Nov 2012, 13:00:17 UTC - in response to Message 1302351.

bobby,

My latest avatar is from a vintage video game.

Qbert lived in a world where the force of gravity came from three directions and when he spoke, he spoke in an alien language.

You, being the NARW type of person you are, are hearing the sounds of Qbert from me.

We cannot communicate because I apparently speak an unknown alien language to you.


Interesting you bring up the NARW label, wouldn't a belief in absolutes reduce one's ability to discriminate (2nd meaning) and increase the likelihood of discriminating (1st meaning)?
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1303873 - Posted: 9 Nov 2012, 5:35:54 UTC

Government bans calculators from primary maths tests. That I assume will be for England and maybe Wales.

This might be a step in the right direction. But personally I would perfer a system based on ability rather than age. But that would lead to streaming and suggesting that, gets politicians and teachers upset.

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Message 1303938 - Posted: 9 Nov 2012, 11:28:17 UTC

I agree with the Government. Calculators are there to save time in complex mathematical calculations. They are not there to replace basic thinking skills and processes. We have a whole generation of kids that simply cannot do simple sums in their head because they have never had to. Teach 'em the basic principles first, then use calculators as a simple tool to save time, and avoid human error.

In my 11+ third chance interview at County Hall, I was asked to "add up in your head 17, 18, 19 and 18". I couldn't do it. What they were looking for was a sideways ability to "see" that it was equivalent to 4 x 18. Double it 36, double it 72. I didn't pass! although I did get the 13+ and went to Technical College.

Try that little maths question on people you know, and see how many, if any, get it right without pencil and paper. Potential Grammar school pupils in 1956 were expected to be able to do it, and without a calculator in sight!.

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Message 1304319 - Posted: 10 Nov 2012, 6:42:28 UTC - in response to Message 1303938.

I agree with the Government. Calculators are there to save time in complex mathematical calculations. They are not there to replace basic thinking skills and processes. We have a whole generation of kids that simply cannot do simple sums in their head because they have never had to. Teach 'em the basic principles first, then use calculators as a simple tool to save time, and avoid human error.

In my 11+ third chance interview at County Hall, I was asked to "add up in your head 17, 18, 19 and 18". I couldn't do it. What they were looking for was a sideways ability to "see" that it was equivalent to 4 x 18. Double it 36, double it 72. I didn't pass! although I did get the 13+ and went to Technical College.

Try that little maths question on people you know, and see how many, if any, get it right without pencil and paper. Potential Grammar school pupils in 1956 were expected to be able to do it, and without a calculator in sight!.


I got my calculator from a dollar store. Damn thing drives me crazy and it usually takes about 3 or 4 goes to get it to give the same answer twice in a row. When doing calculations on the board I find it's often quicker to them sums without it, and I still get the answer quicker than my students who are using calculators.
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Message 1304470 - Posted: 10 Nov 2012, 14:32:11 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2012, 14:32:46 UTC

Have a customer here waiting for his laptop to be recovered. While waiting, he decided to read the paper.

Just as I completed the job, he asked me a question: -

"What's a nine letter word for the following clues"

Solitary Confinement, in Coventry prehaps?

9 letters were provided, these being: - a,t,o,n,i,i,s,l,o.

He spent 15 minutes on this & he's a university student studying law....

My instant reply was Isolation.

Modern education....Doh!
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Message 1305946 - Posted: 14 Nov 2012, 0:49:02 UTC

Now here's a problem, according to Time to square up to the roots of our maths problem, there are more than 300,000 students studying degrees that require maths beyond GCSE level; of these, only 125,000 have done a maths A-level.

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Message 1306636 - Posted: 16 Nov 2012, 1:44:16 UTC

And now in the UK 29,000 of 15 and 16 year olds cannot read the exam questions, that's over 5% of the population.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20346204

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Message 1306711 - Posted: 16 Nov 2012, 8:20:14 UTC

The IT firm admits the data on the group is not nationally representative, but says it was alarmed by the results.

I wish I was totally surprised :-(

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Message 1307277 - Posted: 18 Nov 2012, 4:32:22 UTC - in response to Message 1303938.

When a student, or anyone, doesn't progress to the point to where he/she can conduct these computations in their heads it's indicative that they've been deprived of proper education in basic logical thinking.

They can use calculators later but raising ignorant people is not doing them favors.

Mathematics isn't just useful for math for its own sake. It serves to discipline the mind in general so that that serves them later for so many more tasks and most importantly, for a rational mindset in general in all subjects.
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Message 1307323 - Posted: 18 Nov 2012, 9:30:21 UTC

+1


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Message 1307346 - Posted: 18 Nov 2012, 12:06:56 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 18:03:25 UTC

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Message 1307691 - Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 11:46:49 UTC

The CBI have renewed calls for a change in schools. They have been saying for 10 years that kids are falling out of school at 16, and are simply unemployable. CBI Report

The CBI is calling for radical changes to schools. It says there is too much focus on exams at 16 and that should be switched to 18, with more emphasis on skills people need for life and work.

"Qualifications are important, but we also need people who have self-discipline and serve customers well. As well as academic rigour, we need schools to produce rounded and grounded young people who have the skills and behaviours that businesses want."

The problem that I have is that I do not see it as a schools job to teach pupils "Life Skills" which are seen as citizenship, good manners, politeness, acceptable behaviour. That should be done by a childs parents, hence the title of this thread. Schools are there to impart academic knowledge. Hence we have this standoff where schools and parents are simply not providing what employers want. "Train to Gain" was a failed attempt to address that problem, that fell by the wayside. Baccalaureates and Academies are another botched attempt to fix the basic problem.

I'll quote Don McLean from Vincent in 1971, "They would not listen, they did not know how. Perhaps they'll listen now". I doubt it.

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Message 1307876 - Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 21:01:00 UTC

It had to happen eventually I suppose, just wondering what the standards would be like if this happens...

"Star Trek Schools"
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Message 1308055 - Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 9:55:52 UTC

‘We already know we are in a situation where our school-based provision lags behind the technology of the 21st century. ‘The question we must ask ourselves, as education leaders, is what are we going to do about it? ‘We must do more to prepare our pupils for the world as it is and as it will be.’

An admirable sentiment which only partly seeks to address the problem. As the CBI said, academic knowledge is necessary, but we need more than that to want to give school leavers a job.

The average parent has a hard enough time as it is trying to get kids to be quiet, let alone login to Skype and do lessons. "Nah, off aht wiv me mates aint I!" I think this is a knee jerk reaction of using techology for technologys sake, rather than dealing with the root cause of the problem. Too many kids simply not interested in being educated, and parents who don't care whether they are or not.

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Message 1308059 - Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 10:22:17 UTC - in response to Message 1307876.

For that to happen, with any degree of sucess, then teachers are going to have to get all the students to think and use the technology to find the correct methods and data to answer the questions.
That would be a complete change in the education system, at the moment the students are usually spoon fed until they go to university or do a National Certificate/Dipolma.

Cannot see it happening soon, but it should, as technology is now changing so fast the teachers cannot know what technology will be available 6 months after the kids leave school.

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Message 1308067 - Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 11:10:48 UTC

That would be a complete change in the education system, at the moment the students are usually spoon fed until they go to university or do a National Certificate/Dipolma.

Mainly because schools have to maintain their position in league tables. Scrap that system and there could be a way forward.

Cannot see it happening soon, but it should, as technology is now changing so fast the teachers cannot know what technology will be available 6 months after the kids leave school.

That is what FE Colleges are supposed to be there for, to take over from, and build upon, mainstream education. They are up front with technology, they have to be to do their job.

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Message 1308074 - Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 11:47:05 UTC - in response to Message 1308067.

That would be a complete change in the education system, at the moment the students are usually spoon fed until they go to university or do a National Certificate/Dipolma.

Mainly because schools have to maintain their position in league tables. Scrap that system and there could be a way forward.

Cannot see it happening soon, but it should, as technology is now changing so fast the teachers cannot know what technology will be available 6 months after the kids leave school.

That is what FE Colleges are supposed to be there for, to take over from, and build upon, mainstream education. They are up front with technology, they have to be to do their job.


Except that recently, that's in the last 5 years, a lot of FE colleges are now concentrating on, academic "A" level education for University entrants and practical "Apprenticeships" using NVQ's only. i.e. the only IT course can be described as "how to basically use MS office". Which on last checking with my neighbour doesn't even teach how to set up a syle sheet from scratch. She still teaches that at the end of sentence there should be two spaces, and double line break for para break.

Several friends of mine have effectively got the boot because the courses they taught, (programming and electronics), were scrapped because they were National based, above the capabilities of the non-university capable entrants.

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Message 1308217 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 1:23:37 UTC - in response to Message 1308059.

For that to happen, with any degree of sucess, then teachers are going to have to get all the students to think and use the technology to find the correct methods and data to answer the questions.
That would be a complete change in the education system, at the moment the students are usually spoon fed until they go to university or do a National Certificate/Dipolma.

Cannot see it happening soon, but it should, as technology is now changing so fast the teachers cannot know what technology will be available 6 months after the kids leave school.


I agree with WK that spoon feeding goes on, and technology changes can be kept up with by researching the SOA for that area.
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Message 1308293 - Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 10:12:03 UTC

I also agree with WK. FE Collages are teaching A levels simply because the students didn't get them during full time education. My local College has an arrangement with the Local uni that sees joint registration with both institutions for a degree. Tha A levels at College, the Degree at Uni. They do the same for an HND, year 1 at College year 2 at Uni. The students get guaranteed a Uni place, and the Uni gets a student with known background.

Practical apprenticeships based around NVQ's were the Train to Gain initiative that sought to make a 3 way contract between the Student, the College and an employer on the content of what was taught, but funding was withdrawn. There is controversy about the ITQ/NVQ computer courses, where the employers want MS Office ability at L2, and heavily supported the ECDL, but educational experts say programming should be taught instead.

I'm not sure what is meant by style sheets though, is that the templates that are used in Word, or CSS on web pages? In most cases they would be part of the ECDL Advanced course at L3. I do agree that a significant number of students even at 16, can't construct simple sentences or paragraphs. My College used to insist that any student wishing to enrol upon a L2 IT course should first have a GCSE or O level in English. When you only have 32 weeks to teach 7 ECDL modules, you can't afford to waste a week on how to lay out a simple letter.

Until the schools re-introduce discipline, backed up by the parents at every stage, and teach what is required at basic level, so that they are employable at 16, or now to be 18, nothing is going to change. Baccalaureates and Academies are just attempts to tinker with a broken system. I think Gove has got the right ideas but not enough of them.

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