Parents role in Education ?


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Sirius B
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Message 1190714 - Posted: 1 Feb 2012, 16:48:13 UTC

Wow, what an interesting thread.

Thought I'd put my oars in rather than 2 cents...........

From the age of 5 until 11, I attended primary/junior school (was combined in the same building). From there, went to secondary school until the age of 16.

By the age of seven, I could read & write quite successfully with a basic understanding of arithmetic. From the age of nine onwards, arithmetic became easier to follow.

However, from the age of ten onwards, I began to rebel, not against being taught, but against my parents(valid reasons for doing so but I will not comment on that as I will not belittle the dead).

Whether or not it was the policy of the school I do not know, but from the age of ten, my school used corporal punishment.

I do not recall having taken an 11+ plus exam but my mother got the school she requested for me.

In the first three years of secondary school (I was a glutton for punishment), the teachers dreaded hearing my name & canings galore came my way.....

...that is until they realised that it had no effect whatsoever & I had received many temporary explusions by then so got send to the second building where there was a particular teacher who used the cane....

..that man only ever caned me once..I made sure never to have cause to visit him again...EVER!

Up until that point, one was always caned on the palms, but Mr P caned the backside....

Sirius B
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Message 1190716 - Posted: 1 Feb 2012, 16:57:33 UTC
Last modified: 1 Feb 2012, 17:00:59 UTC

....I was finally expelled for the final time & my parents got me into a comprehensive. The cane as a form of punishment was still in force then & the school used it.

Fortunately for me & many others, the school rarely saw fit to use it. Instead they sat down with the troublemakers & demanded of us as to what we wanted.

At the time, many of us stated that we were not being taught what we wanted...i.e., we had some academic & domestic studies thrown in, even though we had selected technical studies. They resolved the issues, no more trouble - in fact we enjoyed our studies more.

In fact, being labelled an absolute horror, I ended up with 7 CSE's & 7 GCE "O" levels. So today's GCSe's are nothing but a cockaymied amalgamation of CSE's & GCSE's & do not hold the same value.

It has been stated that in general the "data" shows that corporal punishment had an adverse effect....what a load of rubbish! Many of the so called hooligans are now public servants(probably retired by now), forces personnel, emergency services personnel & even teachers.

I found the corporal punishment I received knocked the unruliness out of me & benefitted me later when I entered the Armed Forces - made the rigid dicipline much easier to bear & accept!

Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1190727 - Posted: 1 Feb 2012, 18:04:10 UTC

Hi Sirius, thanks for the comments.

I've always felt that suitable discipline, for the right reason, was a sensible way to encourage acceptable behaviour. We used to have Approved Schools until they were phased out in the 1970's and called Community Homes. We also had Borstals which again were abolished under the The Criminal Justice Act 1982, which introduced Youth Custody Centres instead.

Some say good riddance, others say bring 'em back. I'm in two minds here, they served their purpose at the time, but I don't think they would be acceptable in today's BHL climate. Over the years there has been far to much pandering to the Liberal left over terminology, where things have to have a "soft" title or description so as to not offend or turn off people.

RI = RE
PT = PE
Domestics Science = Home economics
Approved Schools = Community Homes
Borstal = Youth Custody Centres
Mathematics = Application of number

Whatever happened to the British Bulldog spirit, and a bit of British Backbone? Why have we become a Nation of whiners and whingers? Should we bring back National Service? It might make a man of some, but many others will go in a thug, and come out as a professional thug. Remember this The runner, sometimes it just doesn't work with people.

bobby
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Message 1190818 - Posted: 2 Feb 2012, 0:37:06 UTC - in response to Message 1190716.

It has been stated that in general the "data" shows that corporal punishment had an adverse effect....what a load of rubbish!


If you believe the data provided to be rubbish, please explain why they is so, better yet, provide alternative interpretations that give grounds to doubt the conclusions reached. Even better, provide data in support of your statements that are not subject to the criticisms you have of the data previously posted.

Many of the so called hooligans are now public servants(probably retired by now), forces personnel, emergency services personnel & even teachers.


Is this data or anecdotal? If the former, where are the longitudinal studies measuring the outcomes of those once labelled hooligans?

Your own experiences (and if I've mis-characterized them in any way, please accept my apologies) suggest it may be possible to reach a different conclusion with regards to the utility of assaulting children:

the teachers dreaded hearing my name & canings galore came my way.....

...that is until they realised that it had no effect whatsoever[...]
Up until that point, one was always caned on the palms, but Mr P caned the backside


Seems to me that it is plausible to believe your behavior was not modified until sufficient force was applied to change your will, and even then:

Instead they sat down with the troublemakers & demanded of us as to what we wanted.

At the time, many of us stated that we were not being taught what we wanted...i.e., we had some academic & domestic studies thrown in, even though we had selected technical studies. They resolved the issues, no more trouble - in fact we enjoyed our studies more.


it appears ultimate resolution was not reached until you and your teachers talked to each other and came to a mutually agreed path. A conclusion that it seems is supported by something posted in an earlier thread on the subject:

Alternatively, "While punishment may be of limited value in consistently influencing rule-related behavior, non-punitive techniques have been found to have greater impact on children".

In that same thread I (re)posed a comment I made in yet an earlier thread:

"Teaching children that violent acts are the way to enforce leadership is not a valuable lesson."

It seems plausible that children may take this lesson to mean, if it is acceptable for a teacher to use violent acts to ensure my compliance in the classroom, then it is likely acceptable for me to use violent acts elsewhere to ensure the compliance of others.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1190918 - Posted: 2 Feb 2012, 11:27:49 UTC - in response to Message 1190818.

Nice turnaround Bobby. You're the one that brought "Data" into the thread yet did not provide any links or proof. Show me the data & I'll research data for my post.

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Message 1190940 - Posted: 2 Feb 2012, 13:35:37 UTC - in response to Message 1190918.
Last modified: 2 Feb 2012, 13:58:03 UTC

Nice turnaround Bobby. You're the one that brought "Data" into the thread yet did not provide any links or proof. Show me the data & I'll research data for my post.

Links to research on discipline in this thread.

From my previous post:
Bobby wrote:
Alternatively ... (which is a link to http://www.springerlink.com/content/r00u746076w16067/)

Containing the comment:
While punishment may be of limited value in consistently influencing rule-related behavior, non-punitive techniques have been found to have greater impact on children.


From a week ago:
Bobby wrote:
Here's ... (which is a link to http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs/principles_and_practices-of_effective_discipline.pdf)

Containing the comment:
The research to date also indicates that physical punishment does not promote long-term, internalized compliance. Most (85 percent) of the studies included in a meta-analysis found physical punishment to be associated with less moral internalization of norms for appropriate behavior and long-term compliance. Similarly, the more children receive physical punishment, the more defiant they are and the less likely they are to empathize with others.


Sirius B wrote:
It has been stated that in general the "data" shows that corporal punishment had an adverse effect

Apologies for initially misreading this. I do not know the general state of data and research in this field. Any data related assertions I've made in this thread have been in regards to the papers that have posted here.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1190949 - Posted: 2 Feb 2012, 14:08:08 UTC - in response to Message 1190940.

Apologies for initially misreading this. I do not know the general state of data and research in this field. Any data related assertions I've made in this thread have been in regards to the papers that have posted here.


Jeebers...That's a 1st!

You mean to tell me that you have commented in this thread without 1st having ensured that it is a nationwide established fact (backed up with conclusive evidence of course) that corporal punishment was known to cause adverse effects?

You're slipping Bobby, I would never have expected this of you!
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Message 1191088 - Posted: 2 Feb 2012, 23:55:57 UTC - in response to Message 1190949.

Jeebers...That's a 1st!

You mean to tell me that you have commented in this thread without 1st having ensured that it is a nationwide established fact (backed up with conclusive evidence of course) that corporal punishment was known to cause adverse effects?

You're slipping Bobby, I would never have expected this of you!


I believe that honesty with regards to limits of one's own knowledge is rarely a slip. Having said that, I do not believe it is incumbent upon me to defend the position of "corporal punishment has known adverse affects", primarily because it's not a position I've taken, though I have referenced a study providing some support to such a claim, "inappropriate and defiant behavior". It seems to me it is incumbent upon those that have suggested the utility (if there is any) of corporal punishment outweighs any harmful effects the punishments may may have.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1191172 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 9:40:54 UTC - in response to Message 1191088.


I believe that honesty with regards to limits of one's own knowledge is rarely a slip. Having said that, I do not believe it is incumbent upon me to defend the position of "corporal punishment has known adverse affects", primarily because it's not a position I've taken, though I have referenced a study providing some support to such a claim, "inappropriate and defiant behavior". It seems to me it is incumbent upon those that have suggested the utility (if there is any) of corporal punishment outweighs any harmful effects the punishments may may have.


Fair point, so let's look at the other side of the coin....

Since corporal punishment ended in schools, unchecked liberalism has run rampant to a disastrious extent...

...teachers to afraid to administer discipline due to possible claims of assault, children bringing weapons onto school grounds, curriculums constantly changing, qualifications dumbed down.

Too much debating the subject in schools, governor meetings, government with none producing a viable solution, so what next?
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Message 1191188 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 11:57:46 UTC - in response to Message 1191172.
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 12:28:25 UTC

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Message 1191191 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 12:30:53 UTC

Since corporal punishment ended in schools, unchecked liberalism has run rampant to a disastrious extent...

...teachers to afraid to administer discipline due to possible claims of assault, children bringing weapons onto school grounds, curriculums constantly changing, qualifications dumbed down.

I think there are three separate issues here which are all inter-mingled to produce the current situation.
    1. I would agree that teachers are afraid to administer discipline in schools, for mainly the reason that you state, and this in turn has led to a significant falling in behavioural standards.

    2. I think that children carrying weapons is the result of lack of parental control in part, and also the level of lifestyle rampant in sink estates, where youngsters feel the need to carry weapons to protect themselves.

    3. Changes in curriculum and dumbing down of qualifications, due to Schools trying to maintain their position in the pass rate tables to secure future funding. i.e. putting on softer courses.

Add to all that a general change in societies attitude away from discipline, led by child psychologists who advocate letting kids be free to "express themselves", plus a merging of the gender roles. and you've got a recipe for disaster. Oh, and as a final ingredient, where a kids "street cred" is the most important thing in their lives above anything else. If they haven't got the latest trainers costing £100 and don't wear their jeans at half mast they are a non person.

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Message 1191238 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 17:13:17 UTC - in response to Message 1191191.

Since corporal punishment ended in schools, unchecked liberalism has run rampant to a disastrious extent...

...teachers to afraid to administer discipline due to possible claims of assault, children bringing weapons onto school grounds, curriculums constantly changing, qualifications dumbed down.

I think there are three separate issues here which are all inter-mingled to produce the current situation.
    1. I would agree that teachers are afraid to administer discipline in schools, for mainly the reason that you state, and this in turn has led to a significant falling in behavioural standards.

    2. I think that children carrying weapons is the result of lack of parental control in part, and also the level of lifestyle rampant in sink estates, where youngsters feel the need to carry weapons to protect themselves.

    3. Changes in curriculum and dumbing down of qualifications, due to Schools trying to maintain their position in the pass rate tables to secure future funding. i.e. putting on softer courses.

Add to all that a general change in societies attitude away from discipline, led by child psychologists who advocate letting kids be free to "express themselves", plus a merging of the gender roles. and you've got a recipe for disaster. Oh, and as a final ingredient, where a kids "street cred" is the most important thing in their lives above anything else. If they haven't got the latest trainers costing £100 and don't wear their jeans at half mast they are a non person.



Chris & Sirus,

You both mention 'children carrying weapons'... I see this as primarily a failure of the parents to teach their children right from wrong.

When I was a child, going to school in a somewhat rural school district, almost all of the boys (myself included) carried knives to school. They were useful tools, especially considering the 'shop' classes and 'agriculture' classes.

Yes, we got in fights, sometimes epic ones. But NONE of us EVER pulled our knives on our opponents, not even the worst of the bullies. You didn't do that. Without exception, our parents had taught us that pulling a weapon out during a schoolyard fight was wrong.

These days, it just isn't so. My wife recently quit teaching for this reason. She had more than one student attack her in the classroom, and she feared for her life.

This issue is 100% the fault of the parents for not teaching their children right from wrong, and the inner city school districts are more dangerous than war zones because of it.

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Message 1191245 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 17:48:29 UTC - in response to Message 1191191.

...discipline...parental control...dumbing down...


Repeating the same unsubstantiated comments does not make them any more true. Likewise agreement from a self selecting sample.

plus a merging of the gender roles


Something new, care to elaborate?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1191264 - Posted: 3 Feb 2012, 19:56:25 UTC
Last modified: 3 Feb 2012, 20:04:15 UTC

@MajorKong - I fundamentally agree in principle with what you say about weapons, but it is not all the fault of parents. Poverty and lack of opportunity, amongst other things, are some of the causes for sink estates and the environment that they have. And that is as much the fault of government as anything else.

A couple of years ago our College, without warning, installed a walkthrough airport style metal detector one Monday morning as it was believed that a number of students were "carrying". What happened? Those in at 8.00am promptly texted all their friends who ditched their knives in local garbage bins on the way in. Dozens were foiund discarded for days afterwards.

Kids chose to carry knives for their own protection and because it is perceived to be "cool" and it enhances their "street cred". If we can tackle that mindset in addition to encouraging strong parenting, and deal with these feral environments, we might begin to turn around the problem.

@ Bobby - No. Make of it what you will or ignore it.

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Message 1191354 - Posted: 4 Feb 2012, 2:20:15 UTC - in response to Message 1191264.

@MajorKong - I fundamentally agree in principle with what you say about weapons, but it is not all the fault of parents. Poverty and lack of opportunity, amongst other things, are some of the causes for sink estates and the environment that they have. And that is as much the fault of government as anything else.

A couple of years ago our College, without warning, installed a walkthrough airport style metal detector one Monday morning as it was believed that a number of students were "carrying". What happened? Those in at 8.00am promptly texted all their friends who ditched their knives in local garbage bins on the way in. Dozens were foiund discarded for days afterwards.

Kids chose to carry knives for their own protection and because it is perceived to be "cool" and it enhances their "street cred". If we can tackle that mindset in addition to encouraging strong parenting, and deal with these feral environments, we might begin to turn around the problem.


Sigh. More unsubstantiated comments and a new anecdote. Evidence from the Home Office here (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210chap3.pdf) suggests a different pattern of violent crime. I might be mistaken though it looks to me that the trend over the past 15 years has been generally in a good direction.

@ Bobby - No. Make of it what you will or ignore it.


I'll leave speculation for others.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1191359 - Posted: 4 Feb 2012, 3:00:36 UTC

Children and knives:

When I was in middle school, early 70's, I had one pulled on me. The other kid wasn't interested in hurting me, just getting me to shut up and get out of his way. I think I had one on me at the time, but I wasn't interested in a fight.

IIRC then you if you just had one, your parents would have gotten a call, if you used one a week vacation. Today just having one will get you expelled. Of course they give one to every kid in the cafeteria ...

What has really changed? Hype by the press.

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Message 1191366 - Posted: 4 Feb 2012, 3:43:22 UTC - in response to Message 1191359.

What has really changed? Hype by the press.


The British press sensationalist? Surely not ;-)
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1191417 - Posted: 4 Feb 2012, 9:30:48 UTC

We have been specifically discussing knives and children.

UK knife crime

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Message 1191456 - Posted: 4 Feb 2012, 15:04:25 UTC - in response to Message 1191417.

We have been specifically discussing knives and children.

UK knife crime


That's more like it. Unfortunately the lack of data older than 3 years old from the report means we can only discern a very recent upward trend (did the trend start earlier? was it a reversal of a previous downward trend from a higher level?). Following a link in the article I found a summary of more recent crimes, which does not show much of a change in the upward trend in knife crime, though not an analysis by age group, so it may be masking a drop for a specific group.

There is a further issue with analysis of crimes reported to the police that the article notes "Something else to bear in mind is that any rise in crime levels recorded by the police can to some degree reflect a greater willingness on the part of victims to report offences". While the BCS statistics are not immune from the same criticism, it attempts to be somewhat less influenced by changes in willingness to report offences.
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Message 1191718 - Posted: 5 Feb 2012, 13:13:48 UTC

Oh fer gawds sake, I just give up! Now we have to have special classes to teach the poor little dears how to accept that things don't always go your way. When I failed (oops, non pc word, "didn't pass") my 11+ I didn't crumple in a heap in the corner and assume my whole life from then on was going to be a waste of time.

Of course I was disappointed and so were my parents, but we didn't fall apart at the seams. We were British with a bit of backbone, we simply accepted it, got on with it, and made the best of it. Kids today need a damn good kick up the backside, and the sooner the better.

No doubt some school somewhere will soon be putting on similar classes for parents entitled "How to deal with your childs non-positive performance". You think I joke, just wait .....

Failure classes

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