Parents role in Education ? |
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Message boards : Politics : Parents role in Education ?
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Lets get back to the traditional 3 R's, taught in the traditional way, it worked, it is as simple as that. Not fully true. Yes exam pass results rise from the 1980s as you suggested. But, this increase is down to the GCSE exams which replaced the GCE "O" level, which was far more searching and rigorous in the questions asked and the standards expected in exam replied. As Chris comments - Education standards have slipped badly since about the mid 1970s. Small studies have been conducted by asking pupils to answer GCE "O" level papers and the marks given to all top flight GCSE pupils has been below the pass standards expected of the past. Another small point which shows the deterioration is the literacy standards. In the early 1960s 8% of school leavers were considered illiterate and relatively enumerate. Today that level is now estimated to be 23%. This fact is almost certainly due to the fiddling and fads that emanate from Educational Psychologists. ____________ It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues | |
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The three R's are reading, religion and relieving. | |
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... You're correct about the education standards. The slipping started well before the 1970s, but got bad around then. I have seen, for instance, an 8th grade geography exam from about 100 years ago. Dayuuuummm! When I saw it, I might have been able to pull a C on it. These days, I doubt that even PhD students could pass it, and high school students would likely only be able to stare at it and drool on it. And only about 100 years ago, this was expected to be common knowledge for 8th graders. And the illiteracy problem... Kids these days are crippled in more than just reading and writing. They can't even make change without the cash register telling them how much it should be. If I owe $3.68, and I pay with a $5... I have to tell them that 'that is $1.32 in change'... Back in the day when I was in school (late 60s and the 70s), we were expected to be able to do such simple arithmetic in our heads, almost instantly. | |
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When I was at Junior school we had RI or Religious Instruction, but it was seen as to formal so they renamed it RE or Religious Education. Similarly we had Physical Training or PT. Nope, it wouldn't do as it was seen as too authoritarian, so it was changed to PE or Physical Education. | |
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Lets get back to the traditional 3 R's, taught in the traditional way, it worked, it is as simple as that. GCSEs replaced the GCE Ordinary Level and CSE exams. The text accompanying the chart says: The exam achievement series measures the percentage of school-leavers achieving five or more higher grade GCSE (or O level) passes. The higher grade GCSE passes were meant to be comparable to "O" level passing grades. Asking students that have passed one to attempt the other is not straightforward, the curricula are different. I passed "O" level Math with an A, and then went on to an FE college to take "A" level Physics, Chemistry and Math (Pure and Further Pure). I have no idea how well I'd do if I were to take GCSE Math, though I do recall struggling to help out a half-sister with her GCSE course work. Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data, and I think it might be useful if some independently verifiable date were provided. I am not sure why educational psychologists are the recipients of such disdain, psychology does it's best to employ the scientific method, testing hypotheses and the like, and its research is subject to peer review (for example, this paper makes for some interesting reading). While at university I helped a few of my fellow students that were reading Psychology with the Math the coursework required, much of the discipline is grounded in a thorough understanding of statistics, indeed many Psychology graduates are better at statistical analysis than natural science graduates (which can result in poor papers being written by, for example, neuroscientists). ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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Too many modern day parents don't give a fig about their kids education, they bring them up until the age of 5, then hand them over to the State Education system, and then wash their hands of any further responsibility. If true of the majority of parents then why worry about parents being invited into the classroom, none will attend. The schools are dumbing down exams to maintain results and keep their funding, I did not realize individual schools set GSCE exams and National Curriculum targets, clearly that needs to be addressed. and they can't discipline kids because teachers would get sued for assault. Why should children not be given the same protection from assault that adults expect? Add into the melting pot successive governments that refuse to champion marriage with the resultant increase in one parent families, without role models, and its not hard to see why we are in this situation. Are married parents the only ones able to provide suitable role models? I take it there is data to support such a conclusion? What to do about it? Well that's the question isn't it? Presupposes that something needs to be done. If the comments were meant as more than statements of opinion, then they need to be supported and the question of what to be done can be examined. However, if they are opinion, then the question has no place, why should anybody be reasonably expected to act based on the unsubstantiated opinion of another? ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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As Chris comments - Education standards have slipped badly since about the mid 1970s. It may have started a bit earlier that that John. I can clearly recall in the 1960's seeing job adverts for Mechanical Engineers quoting "Old style HNC preferred.". This was because of the 1961 Government White paper, having 2 year ONC's instead of 3 year ones, and introducing the General and Technician City & Guilds courses. These recommendations were an attempt to reduce the proportion of early leavers from technician and other programmes, especially among younger students. The reasons for dropout were familiar: poor teaching, problems associated with weak basic literacy and numeracy, and an inadequate appreciation or knowledge of scientific concepts. | |
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How about this for a fine how d'ya do, you couldn't make it up if you tried. You might well notice, as I did, that at no stage were parents being involved. Anyone care to postulate why? Now I know for absolute sure that the UK educational system has totally lost the plot ..... | |
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For those who think teachers would never use our children for political purposes Link | |
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How about this for a fine how d'ya do, you couldn't make it up if you tried. You might well notice, as I did, that at no stage were parents being involved. Anyone care to postulate why? Now I know for absolute sure that the UK educational system has totally lost the plot ..... Parental involvement is not mentioned in the article. Parents are mentioned once (in relation to pupils' attendance) in the Ofsted inspector's letter. I have no idea why the inspector did not make more references to parents, I am not sure whether such references are common in such reports (there are none in the full report from 2010), and see no reason to speculate reasons for the absence of further references. It seems to me that the inspector is generally positive about the school's attempts at improving the behavior of its pupils, and it seems to be having positive results: ofsted wrote: The school’s behaviour management strategy is showing signs of impact. The task remains challenging, which is reflected in over thirty eight exclusions last year but school leaders are making inroads in improving the atmosphere and ethos in and out of the classroom. The volume of incidents and dangerous occurrences has reduced significantly. Pupils endorse this, and say they feel safer. Perhaps this is a case of the plot being found rather than lost. ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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Some further points here. | |
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The Education sector should be pressing that point home, to parents and Government, until then education is reactive not proactive, so in my view they have lost the plot! What's the evidence that the Eduction sector is not pressing the point home? ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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I agree with your view Chris. | |
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I agree with your view Chris. "Why should children not be given the same protection from assault that adults expect?" Further, what is the data (plural of anecdote <> data) that shows the 1950s "solution" as being effective? Here's a start: The research to date also indicates that physical punishment does not promote long-term, internalized compliance. Most (85 percent) of the studies included in a meta-analysis found physical punishment to be associated with less moral internalization of norms for appropriate behavior and long-term compliance. Similarly, the more children receive physical punishment, the more defiant they are and the less likely they are to empathize with others. If inappropriate and defiant behavior are your intended outcomes, then I agree, the 1950s solution was effective. I do not believe these outcomes to be positive. ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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The old ways of education and control were shown to be effective in the general pupil population, and the result was higher achievement in examination results which were much more searching than current offerings. | |
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"Why should children not be given the same protection from assault that adults expect?" Between the World Wars, punishment in schools, particularly the Public ones like Eton, Harrow, Rugby etc consisted of the cane, which did leave bruises and weals and in my view, was quite unacceptable. The behaviour correction methods that John and I are talking about are the slipper on the backside, or the ruler across the palm. That might have stung for a few seconds but certainly nothing more. But the whole point of it was the embarrassment of it being done in front of the whole class. That was the real deterrent to behave properly and respect your teachers. These days the kids are cute enough, with money grabbing lawyers, to sue teachers for assault, or complain to the Court of Human Rights. And yes, I got the slipper once for talking in class, and the ruler for throwing a paper plane. I don't think that those experiences affected my psychological development in any adverse way, nor encouraged any defiance. | |
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"Why should children not be given the same protection from assault that adults expect?" It seems the lesson of "the plural of anecdote is not data" refuses to sink in. Your personal experience, and that of mine or John's may not be indicative for the population in general. Cane's, slippers and rules were still in use while I was at school, however my own experiences (whether the same or different) would be further anecdotes, and not a useful basis for discussion given that data on the subject has been systematically collected and reviewed. Physical punishment (of any type) would be inconceivable as a method of behavior correction in a typical work environment, adults would rightly object and take matters to the police, why should it be different for children? "Because it happened to me and did me no harm" is not the best justification of its continued use, all the more so when the data shows it has adverse effects in general. ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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It seems the lesson of "the plural of anecdote is not data" refuses to sink in. You are not a teacher and I am not your pupil, so please don't be so patronising, it does not become you. not a useful basis for discussion given that data on the subject has been systematically collected and reviewed. By the Loony Left that has dominated Education for decades. Physical punishment (of any type) would be inconceivable as a method of behavior correction in a typical work environment, adults would rightly object and take matters to the police Sheesh, talk about stating the obvious. Of course, but what has that off the cuff comment got anything to do with what we are discussing? Up until the school leaving age of 16, young people need and require to be taught appropriate behaviour both at home and in school as part of their general upbringing and education. This can usefully be reinforced by restriction of liberty i.e. being grounded, or by other minor methods of correction. Unacceptable behaviour in the workplace is usually dealt with by giving someone the sack, or if it is more serious than that, it can go on further to an Employment tribunal. You seem for some reason to have a "bit of a thing" about assaults and punishments. Whether this is due to some experiences in your own past I have no idea. Perhaps you might like to comment upon this item which recently was in the news. Smacking | |
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One of the old fashioned, and it doesn't hurt, methods I would be content to advocate in an extremely unruly class is - | |
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It seems the lesson of "the plural of anecdote is not data" refuses to sink in. Your constant use of anecdotes to justify a position is frustrating and irrelevant when adopting the approach commonly referred to as "critical thinking". I have referred to critical thinking in the past, as I believe others here have. You might want to research it and find out how its application may be beneficial to a discussion of this nature. As for patronizing, the repeated references to how things were done in the 50s is not? If not, why not? not a useful basis for discussion given that data on the subject has been systematically collected and reviewed. The data I posted was from US based studies, I would imagine that they have likely escaped the worst excesses of the "Loony Left" (if indeed there are any such excesses pertinent to the topic at hand). However, if systematically collected data is not acceptable, what type of evidence would you suggest be used in defense of a position? Physical punishment (of any type) would be inconceivable as a method of behavior correction in a typical work environment, adults would rightly object and take matters to the police What part of "further anecdotes [are] not a useful basis for discussion" escaped you? It is my opinion that idle speculation is frequently the product an idle mind. My question, which also seems to have escaped you, is "Why should children not be given the same protection from assault that adults expect?". I believe that it is currently unanswered by you and John. Perhaps you might like to comment upon this item which recently was in the news. Using the fact free opinion of a Labour politician to support your case is no better than posting your own opinion. Indeed, it might even be worse, as it likely demonstrates a fallacious appeal to authority. ____________ I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... | |
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Message boards : Politics : Parents role in Education ?
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