The effects of time dilation on interstellar travel.


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Message 1179646 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 2:37:04 UTC

This is the one aspect of interstellar space flight that almost all science fiction stories ignore. Even if and when it becomes possible to go to nearby star systems in a short span of years for the crew the time passed at home will have been hundreds, if not thousands of years. I guess at this point it is hard to calculate the effects of time dilation if a FTL drive of some sort is ever perfected but I suspect it will still be there. I doubt that travel about the galaxy will ever be as it is depicted in the movies and TV. Any journey out to the stars in my opinion will be a one way trip with no communication to loved ones back on earth.

So, are there any scientific theories that go along with the various FTL concepts that render time dilation a non issue?
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Message 1179649 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 2:54:38 UTC
Last modified: 21 Dec 2011, 2:55:51 UTC

Time dilation is as real as it gets, and you are absolutely right in that since an alien would be bound by the same physics as we are, the reverse would be true. If they somehow found a planet of the right size, in the goldilocks zone, and headed right here, it may well be hundreds if not thousands of years on their home planet. New discoveries are being made, but if we look at the most energetic events in the universe, such as black hole formation, star gobbling, supernova, quasars, etc., all the ejecta follows Einsteins laws. To me if that much energy can't give us observable results as to speeds and conditions that do not follow Einsteins laws, then the chance of some space ship that can't possible contain the amount of energy of one of the forementioned phenomena has little chance of not being subject to those limits.

There are 63 stars within 50 light lears, and only 512 stars within 100 light years. Chances are not overwhelmingly good.

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Message 1179650 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 3:03:04 UTC

In Star Trek a warp field is created around the starship preventing such a thing from occurring. There's no real explanation about how it's done of course, but it has to do with something called subspace. I imagine it creates a pocket of some sort isolated from the rest of the universe allowing you to travel faster than light without traveling faster than light.

They also have something called inertial dampeners which allows them to quickly accelerate to warp without destroying the ship or killing the people inside it.

I, however, find it more plausible that we'll travel vast distances by folding space to create an artificial wormhole. One possibility is by a permanent wormhole held open by two devices, one on each end. Another is by placing some type of engine on each ship capable of creating a wormhole or by folding space similar to how it was done in the movie Event Horizon.

Another method of travel could be to create a slingshot device. It will slingshot a ship traveling through higher dimensions, and is then caught by another device at the destination. Perhaps the ship is contained in some type of tachyon bubble. Who knows. Maybe information storage becomes so vast that it's possible to store the information of every sub-atomic particle of the ship and transmit it via tachyons to another device that will reform the ship. Just a guess, but that last one is probably capable of being done by only a type 3 civilization on the Kardashev scale.

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Message 1179651 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 3:14:18 UTC - in response to Message 1179649.
Last modified: 21 Dec 2011, 3:25:01 UTC

Time dilation is as real as it gets, and you are absolutely right in that since an alien would be bound by the same physics as we are, the reverse would be true. If they somehow found a planet of the right size, in the goldilocks zone, and headed right here, it may well be hundreds if not thousands of years on their home planet. New discoveries are being made, but if we look at the most energetic events in the universe, such as black hole formation, star gobbling, supernova, quasars, etc., all the ejecta follows Einsteins laws. To me if that much energy can't give us observable results as to speeds and conditions that do not follow Einsteins laws, then the chance of some space ship that can't possible contain the amount of energy of one of the forementioned phenomena has little chance of not being subject to those limits.

There are 63 stars within 50 light lears, and only 512 stars within 100 light years. Chances are not overwhelmingly good.

Steve


That may be true, but there is still a LOT we don't know, yet. What exactly is dark matter and energy? Are there more subatomic particles we still don't know about? What exactly are quarks? Sure, we can identify subatomic particles, but we're just beginning the exploration of the subatomic universe. Ironically, the solutions to traveling on the larger scales could involve the smallest scales.

While we know how black holes can form and what happens outside of one, we don't know what is inside one. Clearly the black hole's mass increases when mass enters the event horizon, so the matter doesn't simply leave the universe as we know it. There is evidence that a black hole rotates, and a gravitational singularity at a point cannot rotate as it has no dimension, only position. What happened or is happening in the event horizon? Time may not even exist in a black hole.

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Message 1179656 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 3:45:23 UTC
Last modified: 21 Dec 2011, 4:31:21 UTC

Is a warp field (I assume time warp field) or anything else similar being mentioned here a product of our imagination (or maybe a lack of such imagination)?

Or does it in the end boil down to to nature's true or own creation of things and matter?

Isn't our ability to listen to music a gift provided to us by someone or something else? Possibly, some people are unable to listen, otherwise, shouldn't we be thankful for what we were able to get?

This idea while watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw86I9dx-Jc right now.

The rules given or set up by the laws of physics and carried out or exemplified by means of the same when it comes to the subject of mathematics may seem or incline to offer a lot of possibilities when it comes to different things.

My guess is that this should be able to be reflected in the same way when it comes to both E.T. as well as our own presence here on Earth as well as the creation of the Universe as a whole.

We do not know the whole story yet.

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Message 1179661 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 5:36:31 UTC

Well, at least Steve understood the subject matter. What I'm looking for is a theory for FTL travel that allows a spacecraft to go from here to there and back without the passage of time here on earth being any different from the passage of time in the spacecraft. So if the crew ages 5 to 10 years the same amont of time passes back home. If there is not a way to avoid time dilation I think interstellar space travel will forever be confined to books and movies.
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Message 1179663 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 6:17:35 UTC

Very interesting question about time dilation. As you approach c the dilation increases. At c the dilation is infinite, time does not pass on the ship as seen from earth. If you were able to go faster than c then existence itself winks out as time on the ship as seen from earth would be in reverse. I strongly suspect that means if it is possible to go faster than c by some artifice the trip can be one way only.
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Message 1180580 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 6:04:29 UTC
Last modified: 25 Dec 2011, 6:32:48 UTC

My thought is: "Time dilation is actually good for interstellar travel"
Say we have a space ship that travel at 50% of light speed.
To travel to nearest star Alpha Centauri which is about 4.3 light years away.
This space ship will take 8.6 years (earth time) to reach Alpha Centauri.
But on the space ship because time slow down, the people on the space ship might only get older one year.

My view is, it is possible to push space ship to say 50% light speed if we find a way to harness the energy from fusion power with "fusion engine"

Some advance alien species out there might already master the skill of harness energy from fusion power.

Some people say that a space ship moving at near light speed, an asteroid size of a 1cm diameter colliding with the space ship will cause total destruction of the space ship. My view is: "the chance an asteroid colliding with the space ship is very low...almost 0"

From where I got this idea? well....Discovery channel and History Channel's space programme, en.wikipedia.com, some text book about space.

There are 51 star systems that are within 16 light years radius from Earth.
With a space ship travel at 50% light speed, travel to these star systems and back to Earth is still within a reasonable time frame.

Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years from Earth
Barnard's Star, 5.96 light years
Wolf, 7.8 light years
Lalande, 8.3 light years
Sirius, 8.6 light years
Luyten, 8.7 light years

more near by stars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars

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Message 1180594 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 8:49:00 UTC

Unfortunately that's not how time dilation works. To the people on the ship it would be 8.6 years and back on earth hundreds of years would go by.
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Message 1180682 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 21:11:40 UTC - in response to Message 1180594.

Unfortunately that's not how time dilation works. To the people on the ship it would be 8.6 years and back on earth hundreds of years would go by.

No. That's quite wrong...it'll be 8.6 years on earth and far less on the ship that goes at half light speed .... here's a link to 'simulate' how time dilation works -> http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph14e/timedilation.htm (you'll see where you went wrong.)

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Message 1180695 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 23:25:25 UTC

I could very well be wrong as I am not a physicist. But if what you say is true then the occupants of the space ship would be exceeding the speed of light.
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Message 1180696 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 23:25:26 UTC - in response to Message 1180682.

Unfortunately that's not how time dilation works. To the people on the ship it would be 8.6 years and back on earth hundreds of years would go by.

No. That's quite wrong...it'll be 8.6 years on earth and far less on the ship that goes at half light speed .... here's a link to 'simulate' how time dilation works -> http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph14e/timedilation.htm (you'll see where you went wrong.)



Besides all that, it's extremely odd to assume that any ET intelligence is using radio signals in the first place... there's absolutely no prove that an advanced civilization would use radio waves to communicate...



It's just bogus to assume that ETI would use radio signal in the first place...
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Message 1180705 - Posted: 25 Dec 2011, 23:50:25 UTC - in response to Message 1180696.

Unfortunately that's not how time dilation works. To the people on the ship it would be 8.6 years and back on earth hundreds of years would go by.

No. That's quite wrong...it'll be 8.6 years on earth and far less on the ship that goes at half light speed .... here's a link to 'simulate' how time dilation works -> http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph14e/timedilation.htm (you'll see where you went wrong.)



Besides all that, it's extremely odd to assume that any ET intelligence is using radio signals in the first place... there's absolutely no prove that an advanced civilization would use radio waves to communicate...



It's just bogus to assume that ETI would use radio signal in the first place...

Radio waves are a natural occurance that occur through out the universe. They can be easily harnessed, and travel at light speed. While there is as of yet no proof that an alien civilization actually exists at all, using radio waves does make sence, as it is an easy way to cover huge distances without a manned (aliened) space ship with no clear target to travel to. It would make perfect sense to use something prominant in the universe to perhaps discover that target before sending even an unmanned (unailened) mission of discovery.

Steve
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Message 1180728 - Posted: 26 Dec 2011, 2:46:36 UTC - in response to Message 1180696.

Besides all that, it's extremely odd to assume that any ET intelligence is using radio signals in the first place... there's absolutely no prove that an advanced civilization would use radio waves to communicate...

It's just bogus to assume that ETI would use radio signal in the first place...


While it is true that any sufficiently advanced race would be using far more advanced communications techniques, if any of them were wanting to communicate with a lesser civilization like ours, they would likely send out an "older" signal like analog radio.

It's generally assumed that most civilizations go through the same technological evolutionary processes, meaning that at some point they would have used analog radio signals too.



Besides all that, it's not like we're trying to capture whatever signals they are using today, and it's not like we're trying to "listen in" on their communications. We're looking for a deliberate analog radio signal sent in our direction. Such a signal would be assumed to be an attempt to contact other budding civilizations, which is a great starting point for looking for other ETIs.

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Message 1180747 - Posted: 26 Dec 2011, 6:19:53 UTC

I don't know how the subject changed here but after some reflection I realized that Crunch 3r and Cheng Fang are saying the same as I. It's just the distance and speed that are different. Regardless of the amount of time experienced by the crew of a very fast sublight space ship the amount of time that passes back home is four or more times longer. And I think that the faster the ship goes the greater the multiplier.
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Message 1180984 - Posted: 27 Dec 2011, 18:52:49 UTC - in response to Message 1179646.

I have written a paper recently outlining a geometrically scaled acceleration pattern of light based on a sub-space uniform alignment based on Lindquist and Wheeler lattice cell matrix universe. This scaled representation in my perception actually produces a path around perceived time difficulties in navigation of space-time travel using uniform rotating fields to produce non-locality reference-density-plenuum-scale-connected space remotely and thus travel from space to space not necessarily instantly such as wormhole, or maybe i am describing wormhole, or punching through space-time but slip-streamed via sub-space field transfiguration at local-to-plenuum-scale such that at least a logarithmic divisor demarcation of flow of time might be maintained in linearly perceived distance travel, which will be based on devices using Rodin-coil style alignments of stable and uniform rotating electron density flows.

The theory that I perceive involves basically a sub-space dynamic back-pressure that is felt reality-wide thus light must at some reference-scale be considered to be able to accelerate from any point to point within some conscious recognizable space and time demarcation alignment. This also accounts for fractal-phasic-multi-inheritant universe simulation-path i.e. thought-realities that do not always grow into actual reality. The reference alignment in my perception was to use embedded spherical alignment surfaces with three lines intersected in any middle with uniform possible permeation points on the sphere surface alignments. Thus producing the speed of light as a basically a universe wide base geometric numbering alignment. And thus reality starts as flux then angle ratio and scale of flux then the possible count of systemically recognized repetition of systemic patterns of stable recirculation flux alignments... This then sets the surface permutation at reference density scale level raised to the power of the number of density layers at linear consideration and thus the speed of light now becomes representable at speeds slower or infinitely faster than what is presently used. And then when this scaling is used in calculating alignments of the torsion spin density field localities such as solar system, galaxy and galaxy sub and super clusters navigation torsion channels can more accurately and easily be created.

Sorry for the jargon but am congealing lots of these thoughts still... My two principal academic and professional field areas are Information Modeling and Data System implementation and was a Naval Nuclear Propulsion Mechanic. This speed of light perception and density has arisen from a scaled combination of these two conceptual subjects, at least in my mind anyway...

Essentially... A device locally would spin up a field and "aim" at some remote point in space most likely a remote solar system star like the sun and spin up a sub space navigation point in that solar system. The return flux shift would produce parameters of the remote local density alignment and the shift in sub space density "between" the two solar systems. The Rodin style device would then essentially calculate a transformation style energy shift alignment between the two spaces allowing for graduating energy flows to account for transmutation of the field encapsulating a craft that is slip streaming time-space to the new location. This is not exactly linear thrust but is not exactly hyperspace but might very well appear to be teleportation-like in visual dynamics. Quite literally this suggests to my perception that the Warp Engines from Star Trek are not thrust devices but the slipstream management devices that literally detach the encapsulated space from a local and remote gravi-torsional fields and all those in between, thus allowing for scaled time alignment between the two in terms of "exit" almost like a combination fo the Nexus from Star Trek and a worm hole type linear slip, as they flow from one space to the other and the actual impulse engines simply give a a small thump once gravity has been "disconnected from the encapsulated ship. With no gravi-torsional force and all reactions at plenuum scale taking on refence speed of light the encapsulation of space relative to any surrounding space time is instantly accelerated to that relative aligned "speed".

There will still be some time involved and due to complexities of transfiguring field among possible in-between sub space areas there might even be LONG periods of time still involved in some travels. However, using what I perceive thus far I am easily imagining at least some minor intergalactic travel using REAL devices that are actually build-able using basic-copper and ionized gases when actually paying attention to space-time geometry as outlined by numerous physicists much more brilliant than myself.


Ok, deep breath... :)








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Electrons started spinning, electrons are still spinning and electrons will be spinning tomorrow to the best of our knowledge therefore either change in acceleration is persistent or friction is fractally less than understood.

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Message 1180992 - Posted: 27 Dec 2011, 19:33:26 UTC

I think I saw something about this electron spin theory but so far no observable results have been generated to confirm or disprove the theory. And if a theory requires nearly infinite levels of energy to produce an effective outcome then to me such a theory has no practical application.
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Message 1180995 - Posted: 27 Dec 2011, 20:15:42 UTC - in response to Message 1180992.

The beauty of these Rodin-style wound coils is that they take advantage of toroid shaped geometry to literally produce what is an over-unity field generation. They traction naturally occurring alignments in sub space in terms of geometry to produce locally represented energy as increases in magnetic flux.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRelZ46TAG8

For lack of better language to to enumerate, what I would say here is that is they are more so addressing only the sub space field that needs tuned locally rather than trying to shift the whole from local scale. This for some intent and purpose short cuts via aligned chemical-mechanical-electric geometry to locally affect only field alignments necessary for functionality required. And differently shaped and wound coils will produce different types of local magnetic flux effects then usable by other interface as anything from lasers to drive alignments as discussed.

I actually have a few of these built myself and am testing what I can in terms of signal response and field productions. The coils themselves are not the entire answer but I sincerely see that they are quite a significant part of it.
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Message 1183433 - Posted: 7 Jan 2012, 6:12:52 UTC - in response to Message 1179646.


So, are there any scientific theories that go along with the various FTL concepts that render time dilation a non issue?



Any "FTL concepts" we posess at the moment are wild, wide-eyed fantasy. Without knowing the method by which we're travelling, it's going to be hard to theorize as to its effects in any realistic manner. As for real-time communication, I don't know. I think quantum entanglement might open up some interesting possibilities here, provided the aforementioned relativistic effects are proved to be a non-issue.
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Message 1187491 - Posted: 22 Jan 2012, 19:45:33 UTC - in response to Message 1180984.

I have written a paper recently outlining a geometrically scaled acceleration pattern of light based on a sub-space uniform alignment based on Lindquist and Wheeler lattice cell matrix universe. This scaled representation in my perception actually produces a path around perceived time difficulties in navigation of space-time travel using uniform rotating fields to produce non-locality reference-density-plenuum-scale-connected space remotely and thus travel from space to space not necessarily instantly such as wormhole, or maybe i am describing wormhole, or punching through space-time but slip-streamed via sub-space field transfiguration at local-to-plenuum-scale such that at least a logarithmic divisor demarcation of flow of time might be maintained in linearly perceived distance travel, which will be based on devices using Rodin-coil style alignments of stable and uniform rotating electron density flows.

The theory that I perceive involves basically a sub-space dynamic back-pressure that is felt reality-wide thus light must at some reference-scale be considered to be able to accelerate from any point to point within some conscious recognizable space and time demarcation alignment. This also accounts for fractal-phasic-multi-inheritant universe simulation-path i.e. thought-realities that do not always grow into actual reality. The reference alignment in my perception was to use embedded spherical alignment surfaces with three lines intersected in any middle with uniform possible permeation points on the sphere surface alignments. Thus producing the speed of light as a basically a universe wide base geometric numbering alignment. And thus reality starts as flux then angle ratio and scale of flux then the possible count of systemically recognized repetition of systemic patterns of stable recirculation flux alignments... This then sets the surface permutation at reference density scale level raised to the power of the number of density layers at linear consideration and thus the speed of light now becomes representable at speeds slower or infinitely faster than what is presently used. And then when this scaling is used in calculating alignments of the torsion spin density field localities such as solar system, galaxy and galaxy sub and super clusters navigation torsion channels can more accurately and easily be created.

Sorry for the jargon but am congealing lots of these thoughts still... My two principal academic and professional field areas are Information Modeling and Data System implementation and was a Naval Nuclear Propulsion Mechanic. This speed of light perception and density has arisen from a scaled combination of these two conceptual subjects, at least in my mind anyway...

Essentially... A device locally would spin up a field and "aim" at some remote point in space most likely a remote solar system star like the sun and spin up a sub space navigation point in that solar system. The return flux shift would produce parameters of the remote local density alignment and the shift in sub space density "between" the two solar systems. The Rodin style device would then essentially calculate a transformation style energy shift alignment between the two spaces allowing for graduating energy flows to account for transmutation of the field encapsulating a craft that is slip streaming time-space to the new location. This is not exactly linear thrust but is not exactly hyperspace but might very well appear to be teleportation-like in visual dynamics. Quite literally this suggests to my perception that the Warp Engines from Star Trek are not thrust devices but the slipstream management devices that literally detach the encapsulated space from a local and remote gravi-torsional fields and all those in between, thus allowing for scaled time alignment between the two in terms of "exit" almost like a combination fo the Nexus from Star Trek and a worm hole type linear slip, as they flow from one space to the other and the actual impulse engines simply give a a small thump once gravity has been "disconnected from the encapsulated ship. With no gravi-torsional force and all reactions at plenuum scale taking on refence speed of light the encapsulation of space relative to any surrounding space time is instantly accelerated to that relative aligned "speed".

There will still be some time involved and due to complexities of transfiguring field among possible in-between sub space areas there might even be LONG periods of time still involved in some travels. However, using what I perceive thus far I am easily imagining at least some minor intergalactic travel using REAL devices that are actually build-able using basic-copper and ionized gases when actually paying attention to space-time geometry as outlined by numerous physicists much more brilliant than myself.


Ok, deep breath... :)








Spooky, that is exactly what I was thinking. Ok, Exhale : )


Kind Regards,

A




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