Political Thread [5] - CLOSED

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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46893 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:37:45 UTC - in response to Message 46891.  

> > Believe me, if I can´t translate my feelings into english, if you have a
> limited Spanish, you won´t be able to understanf all of it´s meaning.
>
> ***Very arrogant of you. Then why bother participating at all as you seem to
> consider yourself an élitist not worthy of discussing things with us lesser
> beings? If all you want to do is pontificate; I'd suggest you join
> WordWeaver at his web-site.
>
> > ...
> > I appreciate your willingness what, sometimes, I can´t understand my
> mother...
>
> You really should join WordWeaver's Fora as you are just as insulting as he.
> The two of you should get along together - both writing as cross-purposes but
> each certain of your superiority over the other.

You see what I was referring to when I spoked of cultural differences. I based my argument in your declaration of your limited Spanish. But it doesn´t matter your level of Spanish of my (low) level of English since what I wanted to mean whit the second paragraph was that it´s very hard for humans to communicate just with words. A better way of communicating cames when you have "chemistry" with another. In the web that turns very difficult.
I didn´t want to insult you. I beg your pardon if you understand so. What I have told about my mother is true: I always have discussions with my family and colleagues about the difficulty of true communication. You can see that this was my argument to retire from the discussion of how Americans are seen from abroad (in thread 4).
Sorry again!
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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46894 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:40:41 UTC

I have edited post 46884. In the last line, when it said "what", now it says "but". I really don´t understand the insulting meaning of this sentence.
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Message 46896 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:47:28 UTC - in response to Message 46893.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:55:58 UTC

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Message 46902 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 1:32:08 UTC

This issue could be worse .o0(Guido)

Thanks for the POV, Richard. I didn't see it that way.
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Message 46903 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 1:45:14 UTC - in response to Message 46902.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:56:22 UTC

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Message 46904 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 1:47:11 UTC - in response to Message 46648.  

> Maybe we should
> circulate a "standard disclaimer" page...?
>
I try to vary them slightly to fit the thread.
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Message 46911 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 1:57:29 UTC - in response to Message 46884.  

> I don´t approve Osama´s terror because I don´t like terrot. But when I see
> American citizens approving his president´s actions...I begin to "understand"
> Osama´s news of retaliation.
How can you "understand" murder by the thousands?

> When you dislike the president´s actions of a democracy you dislike the
> country.
Say what? Are you saying that if I dislike Bush I must dislike my own country? If I dislike Blair I must dislike England? If I dislike Chirac I must dislike France? And by proxy, if I dislike the Pope I must dislike the Catholic Church?

> Mostly when he has been recently re-elected and, therefore, his
> actions have been approved.
That shows some true narrow mindedness if you think that the American people based the entire election on the Iraq issue alone.
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Message 46917 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 2:09:44 UTC - in response to Message 46911.  

> > When you dislike the president´s actions of a democracy you dislike the
> > country.
> Say what? Are you saying that if I dislike Bush I must dislike my own
> country? If I dislike Blair I must dislike England? If I dislike Chirac I
> must dislike France? And by proxy, if I dislike the Pope I must dislike the
> Catholic Church?

I think Luca means "disapprove", not "dislike". But I still disagree with him.
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Message 46925 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 2:26:04 UTC - in response to Message 46917.  

> I think Luca means "disapprove", not "dislike". But I still disagree with
> him.
The result is still the same. That analogy could also work as saying if you disapprove of your boss you must also disapprove of your company. Well I really like where I work, but cant stand my (insert profanity here) boss.
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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46948 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:13:27 UTC

I have to say you make me anger, but I will still try to mantain calm because then you accuse me of fanaticism and another things.

>Say what? Are you saying that if I dislike Bush I must dislike my own >country? If I dislike Blair I must dislike England? If I dislike Chirac I must >dislike France? And by proxy, if I dislike the Pope I must dislike the >Catholic Church?

>The result is still the same. That analogy could also work as saying if you >disapprove of your boss you must also disapprove of your company. Well I >really like where I work, but cant stand my (insert profanity here) boss.

Please! Does Montesquieu sounds to you?? In a democracy "you" choose your leaders, that´s why they call it "representative". When Bush is elected, you can take him as "representative" of America (a contrario sensu he would have lost). It´s true Bush is not "representative" of the hole country, but he is of the main part. The electoral process legitimates the actions of the candidat. You vote him because you accord with him.
The so-called analogy in the case of the boss is not an analogy at all! The boss is imposed from outwards, you don´t vote him. That´s what I´m trying to explain Tom since my first post about Malvinas. There is a HUGE difference between argentine "dictator" (or any other dictator) Jorge Rafael Videla and american "president" George W. Bush. If I consider you understand what you are saying with this "analogy" I would be thinking Bush has been imposed to you...

>That shows some true narrow mindedness if you think that the American people >based the entire election on the Iraq issue alone.

Not, the Iraq issue was not the one. But if I have to choose somebody, I´m sure I will approve and disapprove some of them characteristics. But in the case of murder, as with Bush, theres is no moral code that allows it on Earth. The question is simple: if I have to choose one guy and I´m very fond of his "economic" characteristics or his "moral" characteristics but I know his a murderer, I´m not going to vote him!
The issue is so simple I don´t understand why can´t you see it. These things made me loose my hope in America...
(regarding Catholic Church, in this case, the Pope is highly, higly representative. The Church works as an organism, that´s why it could survive 2000 years).
Regarding Osama (and trying to finishing it): I have only tried to said that I used to believe there was no cause for his acts, but when I see Bush in the presidency, I can see a "cause" coming. This is a major philosophical question, and it´s not simply answered by "he understands a wako, his insane". Please, if you have an answer like that don´t post it. The theory I was referring to is the one that affirms that everything has a cause. As it has well said by Nicolas Krebs de Cusa:
"cum autem causatum sit penitus a causa et a se nihil"
"como lo causado todo lo es por su causa y por si nada es"
"as the causated is everything because of it´s cause, and it´s nothing in itself"
This ancient theory affirms that "everything has a cause". There is another theory that denies this. In the beginning, I assimilated Osama with the second theory, because I think there was not cause possible to unleash his madness. But reconsidering the issue, I have passed Osama to the first theory. That is waht I was trying to say. I don´t like Osama and I want him to be punished if he did it. And I´m not insane because of finding a cause for his madness... because Nicolas de Cusa would be the first to fall in that cathegory "de otra manera" (no me sale en inglés).
I hope my statements are clear now (to Richard: can you see now the inmense amount of definitions, axioms, propositions, theories, etc. that has to be explained before we can at least understand each other´s point of view. That why I´m so critic about communication)
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Message 46950 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:18:36 UTC - in response to Message 46948.  
Last modified: 16 Nov 2004, 4:42:26 UTC

> I have to say you make me anger, but I will still try to mantain calm because
> then you accuse me of fanaticism and another things.
Who accused you of what?

Dont do drugs, cuz drugs are bad. Mmkay?
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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46954 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:26:14 UTC - in response to Message 46950.  

> > I have to say you make me anger, but I will still try to mantain calm
> because
> > then you accuse me of fanaticism and another things.
> Who accused you of what?
>
> Dont do drugs, cuz drugs are bad. Mmkay?
>
This is what you have to say to my post? It seems very stupid, though I don´t understand it completely since I don´t understand English slang. I barely comprehend English.
The only thing I will comment is that a lot of people accuses me of "extreme" in here. I can´t say anything about the other words because I don´t know what they mean, but if they mean I use drugs let me tell me you are wong. By the way, I can use a @Tom argument "What are you a kind of anti-druger fanatic?""I have learned that in many countries (bolivia, colombia, for example) there is an amount of drugs that is accepted by society so, in this societies, you can find drugs in every person statements" (sorry for the joke Tom, but it came out!)
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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46955 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:27:40 UTC - in response to Message 46951.  

> <I><B>THE NEW IRAQI ENVIROMENTALLY FRIENDLY CAR</B></I>
>

This picture is very good. But I have to say that the first description was funner.
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Message 46962 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:37:45 UTC - in response to Message 46954.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:56:53 UTC

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Luca Pacioli
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Message 46965 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 4:41:34 UTC - in response to Message 46962.  

> > > Dont do drugs, cuz drugs are bad. Mmkay?
>
> > This is what you have to say to my post? It seems very stupid, though I
> don´t
> > understand it completely since I don´t understand English slang.
>
> He's being sarcastic. He is quoting from an 'adult' cartoon programmed called
> South Park.

Thanks for the explanation. I hope this ones make my English improve
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Message 46972 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 5:40:53 UTC - in response to Message 46948.  
Last modified: 16 Nov 2004, 10:51:10 UTC

> Please! Does Montesquieu sounds to you?? In a democracy "you" choose your
> leaders, that´s why they call it "representative". When Bush is elected, you
> can take him as "representative" of America (a contrario sensu he would have
> lost). It´s true Bush is not "representative" of the hole country, but he is
> of the main part. The electoral process legitimates the actions of the
> candidat. You vote him because you accord with him.
> The so-called analogy in the case of the boss is not an analogy at all! The
> boss is imposed from outwards, you don´t vote him. That´s what I´m trying to
> explain Tom since my first post about Malvinas. There is a HUGE difference
> between argentine "dictator" (or any other dictator) Jorge Rafael Videla and
> american "president" George W. Bush. If I consider you understand what you are
> saying with this "analogy" I would be thinking Bush has been imposed to
> you...

Luca, why don't you say that you don't like what Bush does, and you don't like what America does? That is very different from saying you don't like Bush and you don't like America.

Yes, the country voted for Bush, but besides the war in Iraq, Americans were concerned about security and safety (this is a different issue than the "war on terror"), we were concerned about the economy, education, marriage of gay couples, and the character of the candidates. All these issues, and more, were discussed before the election and voters had to choose who they would vote for based on the positions the candidates revealed, by their past actions and their campaign speeches. This is how democracy works in your country too, is it not?

Anyway, on the single issue that you see as the key, the War in Iraq, the two principal candidates were not that different: they both supported the war, only differing in how they would conduct the war. Kerry did argue about the economy, but the American economy is doing pretty well, considering what we have been through. And Bush has made progress in education.

So, even if most Americans did not support the war (I don't think that's true, but I may be wrong), what choice would they have had to protest the war? Which candidate would they have voted for? And even if John Kerry had opposed the war, many Americans have learned not to decide how to vote based on a single issue (unless it's the economy).
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Message 46991 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 7:49:23 UTC - in response to Message 46967.  

>clap< >clap< >clap< Bravo! >clap< >clap< >clap< Author! >clap< >clap< >clap< Bis! >clap< >clap< >clap<
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Message 47018 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 10:41:00 UTC
Last modified: 16 Nov 2004, 10:42:29 UTC

a new star is born welcome madame 150 % ! and bye colin the best men from white house but it s history ;-(
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Message 47039 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 11:45:40 UTC - in response to Message 47018.  

HAHAHA, Condi Rice, ultra-right-wing Cold War-relic who was ineffectual before, on, and after 9/11, is now Sec of State.
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Message 47062 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 12:55:46 UTC - in response to Message 47039.  

> HAHAHA, Condi Rice, ultra-right-wing Cold War-relic who was ineffectual
> before, on, and after 9/11, is now Sec of State.

It just keep getting worse.
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