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Message 1161178 - Posted: 11 Oct 2011, 8:52:45 UTC
Last modified: 11 Oct 2011, 9:29:33 UTC

Compare to others some western countries are very religious plus superstetious although they "lead" in scientific department. Like on Dec 31 2008 in NY the New Year Eve ball launch button Bill Clinton pressed that button for some economic good fortune superstition thing. Plus Ronald Reagan was heavy phsychic client during his achievements on closing of cold war or at same period numerous eastern block leaders were also big phsychic clients themselves although communist regime was heavily anti religious.

And then bump this thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3xItrGOi6Q

This video fact I cannot say 1% true or 90% true. So what kind of puzzle is this?

================

puzzle 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvIbqf7MuE0
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Message 1161307 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 0:55:50 UTC - in response to Message 1161178.

Heaven story is pure rubbish. A good way to make money off of the ignorance of the masses.

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Message 1161332 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 3:05:00 UTC - in response to Message 1161178.

Compare to others some western countries are very religious plus superstetious although they "lead" in scientific department. Like on Dec 31 2008 in NY the New Year Eve ball launch button Bill Clinton pressed that button for some economic good fortune superstition thing. Plus Ronald Reagan was heavy phsychic client during his achievements on closing of cold war or at same period numerous eastern block leaders were also big phsychic clients themselves although communist regime was heavily anti religious.


The fact that some people in government are believers, doesn't legitimize any belief in the superstitions. Politicians are elected because they represent the people, not truth or facts.

And then bump this thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3xItrGOi6Q

This video fact I cannot say 1% true or 90% true. So what kind of puzzle is this?


I note that there is a book to be sold as mentioned in the video. I think the comment I read at the top sums it up well:

"People have come back from NDE 's and have claimed different things. Christians have claimed to have went to Heaven. Hindus come back saying they saw Brahman. Some people come back saying they saw fire. And others come back saying they saw nothing.

The last moments are the most surreal. A lot of adrenal and euphoria is released from the brain preserving memories and calling experiences that you've forgotten or repressed. But consciousness comes from the brain, once you die.... "

The same effects found in Near Death Experiences (NDEs) have also been found while testing pilots in extreme gravity situations where the brain is under great duress. Every single effect of NDE has been duplicated in a test environment, suggesting that these NDEs are not as unique or miraculous as the tellers of them want the world to believe.

puzzle 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvIbqf7MuE0


Nearly every "Atheist" story I read talking about finding Jesus all revolve around a horrible lifestyle such as drugs, alcohol, prostitution, and gambling. Then the person cleans up their act and finds "God".

My own brother served in the US Navy, went AWOL, was dishonorably discharged, is into cocain, heroin, marijuana and alcohol. He has also "found" God.

The stories happen whatever way is most fitting for them. Sure, Atheists can find God. Believers can realize that there is no absolute proof in the existence of God and therefore become Atheist. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round.

Try not to assume that there's anything spiritual at all going on behind the scenes with these people. The majority of people who "find" God tend to lack enough skepticism and critical thinking skills to come to a proper conclusion in the first place. Their experience is so personal that they suspend all critical thought and wish to believe so eagerly that they convince themselves that what happened can only be explained one way: their way.

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Message 1161373 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 5:06:34 UTC
Last modified: 12 Oct 2011, 5:20:17 UTC

But the thing is why world's relatively leading scientific empire is also leading superstition empire at same time? That is one of most coolest puzzle of these days.

What is the reason the someone former president pressing the new years eve button, I mean that is really strange superstition. (my wildest guess is at the time outgoing president George Bush has asked Reagan's phsychic which she has likely told him that let Clinton press the button so the Clinton era prosperity comes back something (well actually very nice intention but still some superstition))
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Message 1161409 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 8:43:06 UTC

Religion is an act of faith; it can’t be explained trough science. Is simply a personal experience, some members here would say that there is no soul, that emotions are simply and only chemical reactions that happens in the human brain depending on some situations.

Does a superior being exists? Is there a more elevated level of existence that can be achieved after death? Is there life after death? All of this questions are still unsolved and with no conclusive answer.

One thing I’m sure if some scientists believe that there is several universes and there is no proof of this, why can’t we believe that there are different levels of conscience and existence?

If we call it heaven, hell or something else it does not matter, at the end religion and in what we believe beyond science is a personal thing, and some people found God maybe because they had a personal experience that made them believe that a superior being exists.

About NDE I read a lot of things, some explanations done by science, others just philosophical, nevertheless there is some events that can’t be completely explained by our best scientists.

Personally I’m like Plato, and believe that all creatures are Soma and Sema, the greak words for body and soul.

And like Woody Alan once said, the worse thing of being an atheist is in the day you die appearing at the evening news that GOD exists.

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Message 1161552 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 17:10:49 UTC - in response to Message 1161373.

But the thing is why world's relatively leading scientific empire is also leading superstition empire at same time? That is one of most coolest puzzle of these days.


Because, relatively speaking, we are still a scientifically young race and many of us have not let go of those superstitions. I can only hope that as time goes on, we will lose more of these superstitions and gain a better understanding about the world and the universe around us.

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Message 1161561 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 17:35:01 UTC - in response to Message 1161409.
Last modified: 12 Oct 2011, 17:49:31 UTC

Religion is an act of faith; it can’t be explained trough science.


Agreed.

Does a superior being exists? Is there a more elevated level of existence that can be achieved after death? Is there life after death? All of this questions are still unsolved and with no conclusive answer.


No empirical answer, but we also have no reason to believe that a superior being exists or that there's life after death without sufficient supporting evidence to support the claim.

One thing I’m sure if some scientists believe that there is several universes and there is no proof of this, why can’t we believe that there are different levels of conscience and existence?


You're confusing scientific theory with faith. Scientists don't believe faithfully that several universes exist, and they're more than willing to admit that the theory lacks supporting evidence. In the light of evidence to the contrary, the scientists will immediately change their opinion (this is not the same thing as belief).

Likewise, scientists don't have a belief on different levels of consciousness or existence, but they have theories. Of those theories, some can be tested while others cannot. If theories cannot be tested and there's no direct evidence of the claim, then there's no reason to put any belief into that claim.

I notice a lot of believers tend to confuse theory, belief and faith.

About NDE I read a lot of things, some explanations done by science, others just philosophical, nevertheless there is some events that can’t be completely explained by our best scientists.


Maybe not yet, but one day that will change.

And like Woody Alan once said, the worse thing of being an atheist is in the day you die appearing at the evening news that GOD exists.


The worst thing about being a religious believer is that you spend your entire life devoted to a being that doesn't exist, and you never got a chance to live your life as your own.

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Message 1161570 - Posted: 12 Oct 2011, 17:54:32 UTC

but we also have no reason to believe that a superior being exists


Well in earthly society we have Presidents, Kings, Popes, which act as superior benings or leaders, so why not a supreme deity?

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Message 1161723 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 1:50:36 UTC
Last modified: 13 Oct 2011, 1:51:44 UTC

Compare to west the former eastern communist block was majorly anti religion. Although after 90's the religion and superstition kind of exploded all over eastern block countries the atheistic approach is still very strong in most of these countries.

But compare to europe usa is seemingly too deep in superstition things. That last Mays end day announcer some cult leader who has 17 branch FM station all over usa which is so powerful cult enterprise.
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Message 1161725 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 2:05:30 UTC - in response to Message 1161723.

Compare to west the former eastern communist block was majorly anti religion. Although after 90's the religion and superstition kind of exploded all over eastern block countries the atheistic approach is still very strong in most of these countries.

But compare to europe usa is seemingly too deep in superstition things. That last Mays end day announcer some cult leader who has 17 branch FM station all over usa which is so powerful cult enterprise.


Cult perhaps, but most likely just a scam. They can get people to believe the money they send is going to do good works...

This is really non-science. And an east vs. west view is a bit unrealistic. People the world over have various beliefs. Is there a scientific study to back up your assertions?
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Message 1161782 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 4:24:59 UTC

Unfortunately, very few politicians are scientists. Politicians know that the overwhelming majority of the population are poorly educated and highly susceptable to paranormal claptrap. The scientific community, east and west, is usually above such susceptability. Too many people assume that belief in a higher being rules out acceptance of scientific facts and in extreme cases of "faith" that does become a problem.

The minster that educated me in Christianity also made it clear that the Bible should not be regarded as a science book or a history text. One can believe in "God" and still marvel at the wonders of the universe.
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Message 1161787 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 4:54:12 UTC

Yes I wonder compare to eastern scientists very high proportion of western scientists are religious.
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Message 1161809 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 7:28:17 UTC

Something else to contemplate. Very early on the people who tend to end up in charge found out that that religion is a very powerful means of controlling most of the population. Therefore those people in charge while not being overly religious themselves promoted and supported religion and religious leaders. Convincing the masses that if they were good followers and didn't steal from others, especially their leaders, that they would get their reward in heaven thereby relieving the leaders from being overly generous to their subjects. Now in the modern arena of life it is harder and harder to convince the lower classes that it is required to wait until they die to get their rewards. So instead they have devised ways to make the middle class support those lower in the chain of command so that the leaders ( the wealthy, royalty, dictators and etc.) can still enjoy a higher level of comfort while still on earth.
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Message 1161894 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 15:36:55 UTC - in response to Message 1161570.

but we also have no reason to believe that a superior being exists


Well in earthly society we have Presidents, Kings, Popes, which act as superior benings or leaders, so why not a supreme deity?


Because those being actually exist. They either rise to power, are allegedly given their power from a deity, or are elected to power.

I, however, do not hold them as superior at all. They all put their pants on the same way I do, and they are just as capable of making the same human mistakes I am.

Why not a supreme deity? Because if one were to exist, their existence would be irrefutable. We would not be arguing whether one exists, we would be arguing whether they were the deity or simply a more advanced being than us.

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Message 1161896 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 15:40:04 UTC - in response to Message 1161782.

The minster that educated me in Christianity also made it clear that the Bible should not be regarded as a science book or a history text. One can believe in "God" and still marvel at the wonders of the universe.


I can totally respect that. I know several people that feel the same way. What makes them so much more respectful is that they don't try to justify their beliefs nor do they feel the need to tell Atheists that they're going to hell or that they're blind to The Truth. They fully accept that the burden of proof is on them but they choose to believe anyway.

While I don't agree with them philosophically, I have nothing but respect for people like that.

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Message 1161914 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 16:57:14 UTC - in response to Message 1161896.

Arguing about a divine existence or a different level of conscience for me is like arguing if dark energy exists or if there are a multiverse or even if the universe where created by the clash of two membranes.

There is no scientic proof, or even mathematic models about this theories, in fact from what i read some are more filosofical than cientific.

By the way, I don't care if there are people who believe ina superior being and life their lives according to their believes, at the end what is important is if they are happy.

I don't judge anyone regarding what or what they do not believe in. No one should. The important here is that as humans we need to respect eachother and everyday try to be a better person.

One thing we all know, there are to many questions in our live and at the universe that remain unsolved.

However I don't think we should replace religion by science, as then science can became a religion in itself. It's a Paradox I know, but still a valid one.

OZZ i reespect you because of your strong believes and opinions, from what i read from your replies i can conclude that you don't believe in any God at that we only have this life and that is it.

Quite honestly, if you think like that is because you have your personnal resons that I will not even dare to ask or challenge. It's your choice and let's keep it that way.

The worse thing that can exist are crusaders, who think they are in a mission to convert other people that think differently or have a different point of view.

I've seen religious crusades and science crusades, neither of them are correct. religion because is an act of faith, science because is always evolving always on motion and what today is truth tomorrow can be proven by evidence to be incorrect.

I'm just glad that we all in this forum can be open about such topics without trying to convince eachother that our ideas and believes are the right ones.

From dialogue comes human evolution, not as a bioligical being but as a rational and conscient creature.

At the end we are only star dust and in dust we will became.







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Message 1161974 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 20:43:08 UTC - in response to Message 1161914.

Arguing about a divine existence or a different level of conscience for me is like arguing if dark energy exists or if there are a multiverse or even if the universe where created by the clash of two membranes.

There is no scientic proof, or even mathematic models about this theories, in fact from what i read some are more filosofical than cientific.


Having a philosophy is different than having a religion. I have many personal philosophies, but I am not required to have faith in their outcomes.

A divine existence would have a presence of some sort than can be irrefutably seen, tested, and experimented with. If it lacks those things, then it simply doesn't exist. This is different from dark matter or multiple universes because as our science gets better, we can test these theories. We have people working this very day on these theories working to prove or disprove the claim.

However I don't think we should replace religion by science, as then science can became a religion in itself. It's a Paradox I know, but still a valid one.


Any basis to your claim here? You seem to fail to understand the meaning of paradox, so I don't believe you know what you're talking about here. Science is merely a method to find a deeper understanding of the universe using our limited set of logic, tools, and senses we have available (while constantly working to make that logic and those tools and senses better).

Quite honestly, if you think like that is because you have your personnal resons that I will not even dare to ask or challenge. It's your choice and let's keep it that way.


... but I want to be challenged. If we all take the view that we are not allowed to challenge the way we think or what we think, we will never make it anywhere as a species. Life shouldn't be "you think this and I think that" and that's it. Only the strongest ideas should survive. The strongest ideas are the ones that have proof o their claims.

I've seen religious crusades and science crusades


Really? I've never seen a science crusade. Care to name an example?

I'm just glad that we all in this forum can be open about such topics without trying to convince eachother that our ideas and believes are the right ones.


We should never be trying to insist our ideas or beliefs are the right ones without evidence to back up the claim.

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Message 1161988 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 21:40:15 UTC

Really? I've never seen a science crusade. Care to name an example?


Global Warming
Y2K
Race to the moon

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Message 1161992 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 21:44:37 UTC - in response to Message 1161988.

Global Warming


When politicians took over, the crusade began. This was/is not a science crusade.

Y2K


A technical glitch blown out of proportion by the media. Again, this was not science's doing nor a crusade made by science.

Race to the moon


A politician made that a national goal and threw enough money into the situation to make it a reality. I wouldn't call this a science crusade.

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Message 1162158 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 10:55:20 UTC

If the LHC looking for the Higgs Boson isn't a science crusade I don't know what is...

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