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bobby
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Message 1159847 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 17:46:44 UTC - in response to Message 1159838.

Heard David Leonhardt, Washington bureau chief for The New York Times, on local radio this morning. If this analysis of the various assertions being made is true, I'd say it's an interesting listen.


I wounder how this inequality is applied such that it works against about 90% of the USA population?


Have a listen, the "this analysis" link is to an mp3 of the interview, which lasts about 20 minutes.

____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Message 1159898 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 19:28:21 UTC

Need, not Greed is Their Slogan?

Was not the above an American Communist Party Slogan back in The 30's?

It is Definately a Movement of The 99%. 99% of The Left aka Dem/Libs.

Need, not Greed. What a Frakking Joke.

The Slogan needs to be, Use Your Frakking Brains a Little, eh Dummies?

Dull as a Rusty Razor

Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1159907 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 19:39:49 UTC - in response to Message 1159898.
Last modified: 7 Oct 2011, 19:40:21 UTC

Need, not Greed is Their Slogan?

Was not the above an American Communist Party Slogan back in The 30's?

It is Definately a Movement of The 99%. 99% of The Left aka Dem/Libs.

Need, not Greed. What a Frakking Joke.

The Slogan needs to be, Use Your Frakking Brains a Little, eh Dummies?

Dull as a Rusty Razor



This is why I quoted, "I wounder how this inequality is applied such that it works against about 90% of the USA population". For my impression from the video left me feeling that ability, brains, did not necessarily work for you in getting you higher up the ladder.

Message 1159912 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 19:59:25 UTC - in response to Message 1159907.

brains, did not work for you in getting you higher up the ladder.

CorrectOmundo MarmitetyMan.

Brains have not worked for me. At All. And I like to prove it with every word I type.

I'm glad tho, The Occupiers/Protesters think they have A Cause. They need something to make them feel All Warm and Fuzzy during The Coming Cold.

Dull

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Message 1159917 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:04:10 UTC

It is amazing what 10 IQ points does to a person.

It is amazing what nerve does to a person.

To get to the top you need both, one without the other doesn't work.

____________

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Message 1159919 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:09:27 UTC - in response to Message 1159912.

brains, did not work for you in getting you higher up the ladder.

CorrectOmundo MarmitetyMan.

Brains have not worked for me. At All. And I like to prove it with every word I type.

I'm glad tho, The Occupiers/Protesters think they have A Cause. They need something to make them feel All Warm and Fuzzy during The Coming Cold.

Dull


Shish kebabs, Dull; is America wontingly holding it's self back by adopting silly class racism against the other 90% of it's population??

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Message 1159920 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:11:47 UTC - in response to Message 1159898.
Last modified: 7 Oct 2011, 20:13:18 UTC

It is amazing what 10 IQ points does to a person.

It is amazing what nerve does to a person.

To get to the top you need both, one without the other doesn't work.



A quote from Bobby, "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that .."

Cheques in the post, Bob.

Message 1159930 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:59:44 UTC

Shish kebabs, Dull; is America wontingly holding it's self back by adopting silly class racism against the other 90% of it's population??

Well, Pig in a Poke, MarmitetyMan. Better check what's in The Marmite.

Yeah, My Brain is composed of Ancestral English, Scottish, Irish and German stuff. Which part makes me racist?

On The Financial Side I'll take The German 1/4 Brain. They do have The Top Economy in The World. Not $$$ wise, but Gettin' 'er done Wise.

As far as IQ, I'll blame Head Trauma as a 5 year old for The Low Score. Having a growing forebrain and rearbrain bashed over and over as a youngster is a non-starter.

Anyways as The Cold Wind Blows in New York, Chicago and The Rest it will be interesting to see The Crowds Occupying/Protesting while All Bundled Up.

Dull

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Message 1159964 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 22:05:25 UTC - in response to Message 1159764.

But ozzf4 your individualism always lead to this. Here is the fact:

This is very clear fact seemingly:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/


Because billionares and high paying professionals always felt individualistic so the society crumbles after few cycles.

I have read that both Michele and Barack Obama just managed to pay off their student loan debt just after Obamas successful first book sale. Was that before or just after presidential election.

============

Maybe in the west some degree of individualism really succeed and in the east some degree of communialism really succeed i am not sure something human natural law is working here.


Students loan repayments might be spread over 20 years. Particularly when one has studied for more than the 4 year bachelor degree. Since Barack was around 45-47(?) at the time of election (?), it is not so surprising that he just paid off those loans.

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Message 1159969 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 22:14:07 UTC - in response to Message 1159776.
Last modified: 7 Oct 2011, 22:24:38 UTC

But ozzf4 your individualism always lead to this. Here is the fact:

This is very clear fact seemingly:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/


Those 99%, like myself (as I am drowning in debt), are responsible for themselves and their debt. This is not the result of an individualistic society, and it would not necessarily be better in a communal society. This is the result of people being allowed to and borrowing more than they should have (again, myself included).


Internal locus or external locus of control? After 3.5-4 decades, sorry, I'm going to accept some things and other things ... sorry ... just not my fault. I'm not some spirit in the material world.
There's owning one's self and then there's unnecessarily beating one's self up.

Success is all but guaranteed for those who use their heads.


if that were 100% completely true, my Dad the valedictorian would be much better off today. Were any of his troubles his fault? Maybe? not studying his first semester in college? Maybe? Or was high school really that easy for him that he never needed, let alone learned to study until the first semester of university kicked his butt?
What about the business he worked for nearly 30 years nearly giving him a heart attack? That company went bankrupt a few years later. The company was spread across the East coast. Large enough that no way could he be at fault for their demise. But if they could go bankrupt, maybe they were doing enough things wrong to cause him enough stress to cause a heart problem to develop? Hmmm? He had to leave the company, to do something he'd be happier at, and in so doing sacrificed the benefits they would've extended to him had he stayed another year.
All his fault?
All the company's fault?
Let's drop these false dichotomies.
We are not, as Sting claimed, "Spirits in the Material World."

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Message 1159970 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 22:19:00 UTC - in response to Message 1159787.

Ozzf4 you are really ignoring the fact that american society is realistically nurture only few Steve Jobs's and only few Obamas and rest of more than 90% is really end up with capitalism victims.


The only victims of capitalism are the ones that are uninterested in their own education and uninterested in developing a useful skill to earn a living off of.


When one university views doing essentially the same job one did at another university as being worth $16,000 per year less (and getting that job sure as heck required using da old noggin), the professor is a victim of his or her own ... what? It's his or her fault that one place puts a lower value on things? It's his or her fault that a football player is worth hundreds of thousands to millions? It's his or her fault that the university cut positions back due to the choices others were making economically? It's his or her fault the ax chopped his or her head (that (s)he USED) because (s)he was the newest in the department?
But (s)he used the NOGGIN'!

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Message 1159974 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 22:24:17 UTC

P.S.-Ozz, just stating questions bluntly, not arguing with you. Raising issues for debate, as you have done for me.

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Message 1159986 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 23:03:01 UTC
Last modified: 7 Oct 2011, 23:38:57 UTC

In some respect american social trend was really leading the civilization that I wonder perhaps nearly 100 countries copied their constitution in the past century. Although human nature always proves that it is always head rots first so the public begin to complain about the head and rise. Which is now happening.

It started in Cairo took some wind all over middle east even whirled to London and now whirling to NY. (the thing is all those places are politically connected)

=====================

But nowadays western media actively hiding a fact that in china maybe in most small and medium cities there are all kinds of social risings happening which western media is fully aware but for western politicians their cheap labor strategy is more important than anything else.

=================

I am guessing all these things are something 10 year thing and more healthy evolved social development strategy begin to lead the normal life in a few years time.

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Message 1159987 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 23:20:16 UTC - in response to Message 1159969.

Internal locus or external locus of control? After 3.5-4 decades, sorry, I'm going to accept some things and other things ... sorry ... just not my fault. I'm not some spirit in the material world.
There's owning one's self and then there's unnecessarily beating one's self up.


You honestly lost me here... I'm not clear at all what you're trying to say.

The most I can respond with is that every choice we make affects our future, and we're not as forced into decisions as we rationalize ourselves to be.

Success is all but guaranteed for those who use their heads.


if that were 100% completely true, my Dad the valedictorian would be much better off today.


To be a valedictorian means to graduate at the top of one's class, which implies using one's head, but isn't necessarily true... it could simply mean they are good at book work or taking tests. I've seen a lot of people in the IT industry with more credentials than me, yet seem to know so little while in the job.

This is why I put the modifier "all but guaranteed".

Were any of his troubles his fault?


If we're honest and objective, yes.

What about the business he worked for nearly 30 years nearly giving him a heart attack?


Did the company really give him a heart attack? Or were there other factors at play and we decide to place the blame on the stresses of work which we all go through, some more than others disproportionately. If you don't like the stress, retool your skills and find another job.

But if they could go bankrupt, maybe they were doing enough things wrong to cause him enough stress to cause a heart problem to develop?


Depends on the personality... some people would stress over not collecting the garbage on time and could cause unnecessary stress on the heart. That's the thing about stress... it's all self-induced. We do it to ourselves based upon our mental mindset.

All his fault?
All the company's fault?


His fault. It would be his fault for allowing himself to stress so much and enduring it for so long.

Let's drop these false dichotomies.


PS - I know that talking about one's loved ones can make a person very emotional and can make them quite defensive with the responses they receive. If you would rather, I can talk about what would have been my father-in-law and his predicament that killed him even while partly owning his own company, though I hate revealing personal information, I'd do it so that you don't feel like I'm attacking you.

When one university views doing essentially the same job one did at another university as being worth $16,000 per year less (and getting that job sure as heck required using da old noggin),


Your pay rate is a factor of many different things. How good you are. How much money the company has to pay you. Your ability to negotiate a higher wage. If you couldn't negotiate a higher wage or weren't accepted at a more successful facility, then you weren't really skillful enough or worth the extra money.

the professor is a victim of his or her own ... what?


The professor isn't a victim at all. The professor has a job and is earning money at the best rate of employment they could negotiate.

It's his or her fault that one place puts a lower value on things?


It's their fault for not recognizing when their skills could earn them more elsewhere, or in accepting that their skills aren't as up to snuff as they thought they were.

It's his or her fault that a football player is worth hundreds of thousands to millions?


Society has always put a disproportionate value on entertainment above all else. Could the professor have decided early enough to be a football player and earn that money instead? Yes. We choose what skills we want to learn and earn a living off of.

It's his or her fault that the university cut positions back due to the choices others were making economically?


Some industries are more volatile than others. This should be taken into account when choosing one's profession. If someone is ignorant or purposefully blind to what they are getting themselves into, then they're not using their heads very well, even if they're a professor.

It's his or her fault the ax chopped his or her head (that (s)he USED) because (s)he was the newest in the department?
But (s)he used the NOGGIN'!


No, but it would be their fault if they stayed on their ass and didn't make themselves useful. Companies only cut the fat during tough economic times. If you find yourself cut, you were the fat. I've seen companies get rid of the old-timers over the newest person in the department simply because inexperienced employees are cheaper and not as set in their ways when a company wants to change the way they operate.

P.S.-Ozz, just stating questions bluntly, not arguing with you. Raising issues for debate, as you have done for me.


I can tell, and you're line of reasoning seems very emotional, so I hope my answers don't incite anger. I'm answering as honestly and objectively as I can because you deserve no less.

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Message 1160000 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 0:07:39 UTC - in response to Message 1159987.
Last modified: 8 Oct 2011, 0:12:12 UTC

"Ozzfan" wrote:
"Sarge" wrote:
Internal locus or external locus of control? After 3.5-4 decades, sorry, I'm going to accept some things and other things ... sorry ... just not my fault. I'm not some spirit in the material world.
There's owning one's self and then there's unnecessarily beating one's self up.


You honestly lost me here... I'm not clear at all what you're trying to say.


You are correct that I included my emotions in the previous post. That is not necessarily a problem.
As for "locus of control," it is a term I first encountered in a Child & Adolescent Psychology class taken as an undergrad. You might be interested in some brief reading about it included at http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.php/Locus_of_control.
Since it was the crux of my points in posts today, and it is implicitly what you are responding to, here's the bottom line as I see it:
People must bear responsibility for their decisions, One that does so completely has a(n) (completely?) internal locus of control.
I do not think it is reasonable to say one's situation, successes and failures, are completely due to one's previous decisions.
"No one is an island."
"We are not just the sum of our parts."
So on and so forth.
We are indeed impacted by outside factors. We cannot control everything.
That is not to say blame every bad thing in one's life on anything and everyone else.
Here's a hypothetical situation:
Suppose 40000 years ago, a pocket of Neandertals survived on some small island. Over time, the population dwindles. No Homo Sapiens ever stumble across the island. (I know, big assumption, but go with it.) Finally, a man and woman remain, have one child, then the parents pass away at some point after a regular, but lonely Neandertal life. The one child, now an adult, is completely alone. If Neandertals (or ones that survived) could contemplate one's situation the way we do, then that one remaining Neandertal is about the only creature I could think of that could think to himself or herself: "I am completely responsible for my successes and failures ... my fate."
To say otherwise, about us, essentially, subscribes to the position: " I affect myself, only, I have no effect on others, and nothing effects me."
I do not subscribe to that philosophy. It is not one of my axioms.
Frankly, I do not think you do either. On at least two occasions, you've mentioned the death tax ... regarding the difficulties that tax, by government (made up of people) has affected .. her name is Michelle? ... and you.
I'll close for now with a brief aside to you and Skil. Skil, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I suspect what you brought up about the Founding Fathers applied to the elite of their time and earlier. What Ozz has been describing, I think, is what nearly every parent would hope to be able to do: pass on just a little bit to their children to make life a little easier after the parents are gone. That is far different from inheriting millions and sitting on one's butt living in debauchery once getting an inheritance.

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Message 1160001 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 0:14:46 UTC

P.S.-and that last line is not to suggest that is the behavior to be found among the set of all who have inherited one million or more.

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Message 1160008 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 0:30:09 UTC

Ah, heck, one more, less hypothetical ... .
Late 80s. 16 year old girl, living in a gherto, addicted to crack, has a baby ... .
Child grows up, luckily fairly high functioning.
Success in such a situation? Heck, just avoiding crack and all other drugs! Not getting pregnant (or impregnating someone) at such a young age. Avoiding a life of crime.
It might take something like at least 3 generations more for more successes for the family to get out of the ghetto.
Would the person born as a crack baby have the right to fault the crack mom for very bad decisions? I think yes.

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Message 1160012 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 0:44:53 UTC - in response to Message 1160000.
Last modified: 8 Oct 2011, 1:08:06 UTC



People must bear responsibility for their decisions, One that does so completely has a(n) (completely?) internal locus of control.
I do not think it is reasonable to say one's situation, successes and failures, are completely due to one's previous decisions.
"No one is an island."
"We are not just the sum of our parts."
So on and so forth.
We are indeed impacted by outside factors. We cannot control everything.
That is not to say blame every bad thing in one's life on anything and everyone else.

...

To say otherwise, about us, essentially, subscribes to the position: " I affect myself, only, I have no effect on others, and nothing effects me."
I do not subscribe to that philosophy. It is not one of my axioms.


We are of course affected by outside factors, but everything we have for success is within our direct control. Being responsible for ourselves and saying that outside factors affect our successes are not mutually exclusive.

There's a reason why there's a good saying, "When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade". We can control the product of our output, and yes outside factors affect our output, but we have direct control and need to be diversive enough to go along with change when necessary.

Frankly, I do not think you do either. On at least two occasions, you've mentioned the death tax ... regarding the difficulties that tax, by government (made up of people) has affected .. her name is Michelle? ... and you.


Michele, with one L. She'll correct you on that. ;-) We have not been affected by any death tax because A) we have not even received her inheritance yet and B) she would inherit less than what the current tax limit is set at.

But that aside, even if we were affected by the death tax (against our will, by force of tax by the people), then yes, that would be out of our control, but what would that have to do with our ability to be successful by our own means? Sure, it would help tremendously, and put us in a position that few others have the pleasure of having, but that's the bonus one gets in having a family member that sees the value in bettering one's self and leaves you with something once they're gone.

To say that "I can't be successful because I'm not paid enough by my employer and I didn't receive a large inheritance" is to blame all outside factors and refuse to admit one's responsibility in one's own life.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that everything one endures during their own life outside of their control will negate their ability to be or remain successful, even for a small percentage of the population.

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Message 1160015 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 0:49:46 UTC - in response to Message 1160008.
Last modified: 8 Oct 2011, 1:15:43 UTC

Ah, heck, one more, less hypothetical ... .
Late 80s. 16 year old girl, living in a gherto, addicted to crack, has a baby ... .
Child grows up, luckily fairly high functioning.
Success in such a situation? Heck, just avoiding crack and all other drugs! Not getting pregnant (or impregnating someone) at such a young age. Avoiding a life of crime.
It might take something like at least 3 generations more for more successes for the family to get out of the ghetto.
Would the person born as a crack baby have the right to fault the crack mom for very bad decisions? I think yes.


Sure, parents are to blame for a lot of a child's development or lack thereof. Does that mean that the first generation child has no chance at all of getting out of the ghetto? Absolutely not! It depends on their drive and motivations. They can take it upon themselves to become interested in their own education, and there's enough scholarship programs out there to help the disadvantaged to get her at least as far as through basic school and her first year of community college. That's a great success for all that she had to go through just to get to that point.

It does not take 3 generations or more to achieve success high enough to live comfortably, and to suggest otherwise is just plain crazy.

Message 1160111 - Posted: 8 Oct 2011, 7:15:41 UTC

Neandertals survived on some small island...But (s)he used the NOGGIN'!
Neanderthals had BIG NOGGINs. On Manhattan Island in The Occupy/Protest Crowds, I didn't see any BIG NOGGINs.

Neanderthals had BIGGER NOGGINs than Present H. Sapiens.

Maybe our NOGGINs will be Bigger as Time Protests, I mean Progresses.

Dull.

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