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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1163252 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 17:35:53 UTC

Never underestimate the power of the masses when they are pissed off.


The masses hold unprecedented power, but it never gets used through lack of co-ordination. If everybody in the USA boycotted Walmart for one week, they'd have severe cashflow problems, same for Tesco in the UK. If everyone with a particular bank withdrew all their funds and deposited them elsewhere, that would cause severe problems.

Then they might listen, but it would need at least a 90% public response which would not happen. In any case, where does protest stop and anarchy begin? There is aften a thin line between civil disobedience and law breaking. As we might be about to see at Dale Farm.

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Message 1163256 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 17:44:04 UTC - in response to Message 1163252.

Never underestimate the power of the masses when they are pissed off.


The masses hold unprecedented power, but it never gets used through lack of co-ordination. If everybody in the USA boycotted Walmart for one week, they'd have severe cashflow problems, same for Tesco in the UK. If everyone with a particular bank withdrew all their funds and deposited them elsewhere, that would cause severe problems.

Then they might listen, but it would need at least a 90% public response which would not happen. In any case, where does protest stop and anarchy begin? There is aften a thin line between civil disobedience and law breaking. As we might be about to see at Dale Farm.

Well first Chris, you'd have to define "anarchy".

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Message 1163279 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 19:09:11 UTC - in response to Message 1163116.
Last modified: 17 Oct 2011, 19:09:57 UTC

Much truth. Well stated.
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Message 1163356 - Posted: 18 Oct 2011, 2:27:46 UTC - in response to Message 1163087.
Last modified: 18 Oct 2011, 2:28:11 UTC

99% is well ...

A company is hired to clean the park every night. Now they can't. Wonder how many workers have been laid off because the park isn't getting cleaned.


Really Gary? That's your argument?

How about the fact that the protesters put raised funds together to pay for the park cleaning themselves?

I also am pretty sure that you are not one of the 1%, so I don't understand why you think the protesters aren't on your side.

The protesters put people out of a job. Actions speak louder than words.

The protesters are not on my side as I don't think everyone should be held to the lowest common denominator.

Yes, there have been excesses. There always have been and always will be. Learn to be tolerant of your fellow man.

If you don't like how corporations are run, then change the thing that runs them, fiduciary duty. Put some other things in front the the duty to make the most possible for the shareholder. The corporation isn't to blame, the legislature is to blame!

Now as to this concentration of wealth thing, what was the concentration of wealth that John D. Rockefeller and James Pierpont Morgan enjoyed? Was it greater or less than Mr. Buffet and Mr. Gates? Has money tricked up or down in the intervening century+? If you don't know where you are starting you can't make a map that will get you to where you want to be.
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Message 1163568 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 0:43:59 UTC - in response to Message 1163356.

99% is well ...

A company is hired to clean the park every night. Now they can't. Wonder how many workers have been laid off because the park isn't getting cleaned.


Really Gary? That's your argument?

How about the fact that the protesters put raised funds together to pay for the park cleaning themselves?

I also am pretty sure that you are not one of the 1%, so I don't understand why you think the protesters aren't on your side.

The protesters put people out of a job. Actions speak louder than words.

The protesters are not on my side as I don't think everyone should be held to the lowest common denominator.

Yes, there have been excesses. There always have been and always will be. Learn to be tolerant of your fellow man.

If you don't like how corporations are run, then change the thing that runs them, fiduciary duty. Put some other things in front the the duty to make the most possible for the shareholder. The corporation isn't to blame, the legislature is to blame!

Now as to this concentration of wealth thing, what was the concentration of wealth that John D. Rockefeller and James Pierpont Morgan enjoyed? Was it greater or less than Mr. Buffet and Mr. Gates? Has money tricked up or down in the intervening century+? If you don't know where you are starting you can't make a map that will get you to where you want to be.


Not sure about the last century, though the link to the WNYC broadcast I posted here does provide some details about what has happened over the last 30 or so years. It certainly seems that money has not trickled down over this period; over the same period the percentage at which the highest earners are taxed has decreased.

Gary, I've seen you comment on fiduciary duty a few times, and am wondering what it is about this duty that is blameworthy?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1163577 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 1:53:29 UTC - in response to Message 1163568.

Gary, I've seen you comment on fiduciary duty a few times, and am wondering what it is about this duty that is blameworthy?

This wiki article is really short.

There are a considerable number of people who seem to think corporations have some blame in what they see as some sort of fairness duty to a country or mankind. Public corporations are nothing but a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. The duty owed to the shareholder is above any duty the director/officer may owe his country or fellow man. Repeat this until it fully sinks in! So when the the choice comes up of having new jobs in the USA or cheapest labor market on the planet, the duty owed the shareholders is the over riding duty. The jobs must be shipped offshore. No matter how the directors/officers feel about the matter. If they don't they are breaking the duty which means they are breaking the law.

There are some ways to change this if this is how you want fair to come down. One way is to change the tax code so those offshore cheap labor cesspools become more expensive than USA labor. That likely won't work as corporations will simply buy from independent companies in those cesspools and not hire via a subsidiary. Another way is the get the shareholders to change the bylaws to remove the things you don't believe are fair from the duty. As most every public corporation is owned by other public corporations that isn't going to fly due to a vicious circle. The last way is to change the law on the duty and place being a good citizen of the USA above the duty to make every penny possible. If that is done expect some companies to move offshore lock stock and barrel, but that is why we have trade tariffs.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what many people think fair should be. I know if what I understand their concept of fair was to be attempted, it would be considered protectionist and likely get the USA in deep hot water with the WTO.

Personally I think if your piece of paper wants access to American capital and the American Legal system then it may have to settle for being a bit of an American citizen, especially as SCOTUS says that piece of paper is a people.

Now as to trickle up/down you really should look this up over the time span indicated, inflation adjusted. Then look at that wealth one, two and three generations down the line. Makes for something to ponder.

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Message 1163655 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 11:36:15 UTC

Gary,

I've also seen your reference to fiduciary duty and the laws of the United States, but I've searched quite extensively and not been able to find any evidence to support your definition of fiduciary duty.

Which law or laws in the US are you referring to?
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Message 1163656 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 11:45:28 UTC

Gary, Fudiciary duty is not the problem. That is a fair and reasonable expectation.

The problem is that corporate fat cats have decided to reward themselves by creating short term "profits" by destroying people, lives, the companies reputation in order to line their own pockets at the expense of shareholders.

There is nothing to indicate that the financial well being of a company can ONLY be measured by this quarters statements. The name recognition, values shown, world consciousness, reputation, are all significant values to each corporation.

When ever companies are dismantled for their basic values(and there are many games to CAUSE this) there is a loss of jobs, loss of esteem, and loss of compassion. This also reflects to the customers and often results in loss of
sales and income as well. However, those at the top reward themselves richly
if things go well, and richly "to retain talent" when things go badly. If someone is shuffled out, their low friends in high places make sure they have another place to go. The 1% take very good care of themselves at the expense of everyone else. To call this "Fudiciary Duty" is disingenuous at best.


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Message 1163677 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 14:00:15 UTC - in response to Message 1163656.

Gary, Fudiciary duty is not the problem. That is a fair and reasonable expectation.

Then everything is perfect with public corporations today.

The problem is that corporate fat cats have decided to reward themselves by creating short term "profits" by destroying people, lives, the companies reputation in order to line their own pockets at the expense of shareholders.

Do you not understand that every year the shareholders vote to give this compensation to the board? It can not be at the expense of the shareholders. It is was they they would be violating their fiduciary duty to the shareholders.

There is nothing to indicate that the financial well being of a company can ONLY be measured by this quarters statements. The name recognition, values shown, world consciousness, reputation, are all significant values to each corporation.

The share price is the value to the shareholder, if the company isn't making a growing profit that drops. As the SEC requires quarterly measures ... something tells me you don't understand the basic things that are involved in investing your money. The duty owed to the shareholder is above any duty the director/officer may owe his country or fellow man. Repeat this until it fully sinks in! Your statement about destroying people indicates you did not understand and it hasn't fully sunk in yet.

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Message 1163761 - Posted: 19 Oct 2011, 20:47:15 UTC - in response to Message 1163655.

Gary,

I've also seen your reference to fiduciary duty and the laws of the United States, but I've searched quite extensively and not been able to find any evidence to support your definition of fiduciary duty.

Which law or laws in the US are you referring to?

You aren't going to find much in statutes, but a considerable amount in decisions a/k/a case law. You might find some looking up fraud. You may also have to look to each of the 50 states sets of laws as corporations in the USA are a matter of state law not Federal. Not every state puts it online or in a searchable form even if it is online. Legal research in the USA is a PITA.


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Message 1163866 - Posted: 20 Oct 2011, 8:55:12 UTC

There is a Duty of Care in both the USA and the UK.

Duty of Care

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Message 1164422 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 3:50:15 UTC - in response to Message 1163677.

Minor change -- is the *perceived* value to the shareholder. It is amazing to what the psychotropic effects that corporations have on shareholders.


The share price is the value to the shareholder.


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Message 1164425 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 3:51:56 UTC - in response to Message 1163866.

But once the Teapublicans take over, that minor detail will be eliminated in the Disparate States. Particularly as it applies to health care professionals -- we simply have to kill off the old, the sick and the poor as soon as possible to make a better Amerika.


There is a Duty of Care in both the USA and the UK.

Duty of Care


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Message 1164463 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 11:07:26 UTC

Back to the thread title, we have a sad situation in London. There are 300 protesters camped out in the graveyard of St Pauls Cathedral, who are refusing to leave. We now have a safety issue, so the Cathedral has been shut losing £22,000 a day in revenue.

No doubt they are happy in bringing publicity to their cause, but I would rather see a bank or business shut down than the Cathedral. Godammit, it survived the Blitz in WWII, now a bunch of nerdy chinless wonders have managed what Hitler couldn't.

And I bet most of them are professional protesters who don't care about the cause, just as long as they can make hassle for the authorities. Now that Dale Farm is over they have to find something to do. If I had my way, I'd hose them all down with 500 gallons of raw sewage.

St Pauls

Message 1164468 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 11:24:29 UTC

If I had my way, I'd hose them all down with 500 gallons of raw sewage.

Yeah, too bad The Thames is cleaned up.

Is there still an Occupy Movement? I haven't noticed lately.

nerdy chinless wonders have managed what Hitler couldn't

I wish a U.S. Politician would say that. Man, what a Field Day The Talking Heads would have.

Dull

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Message 1164520 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 16:12:20 UTC - in response to Message 1164463.

Back to the thread title, we have a sad situation in London. There are 300 protesters camped out in the graveyard of St Pauls Cathedral, who are refusing to leave. We now have a safety issue, so the Cathedral has been shut losing £22,000 a day in revenue.

No doubt they are happy in bringing publicity to their cause, but I would rather see a bank or business shut down than the Cathedral. Godammit, it survived the Blitz in WWII, now a bunch of nerdy chinless wonders have managed what Hitler couldn't.

And I bet most of them are professional protesters who don't care about the cause, just as long as they can make hassle for the authorities. Now that Dale Farm is over they have to find something to do. If I had my way, I'd hose them all down with 500 gallons of raw sewage.

St Pauls

At least that article mentions the views of the protesters:
But the protesters claim they have tried to answer such concerns, reorganising their camp "in response to feedback from the fire brigade".

OccupyLSX said in a statement they had been working "to accommodate the cathedral's concerns in any way we can".


The Daily Mail article on this is hilarious with no attempt at actual news reporting with the headline:

Surrender of St Paul's: Protest rabble force the cathedral to close, a feat that Hitler could barely manage


"Surrender", "Rabble", "Hitler"

That's a fricken awesome use of emotive negative words in the context of these protests and shows absolutely no attempt and being unbiased. LMAO.

People should analyse their news sources a little more, it's clear they have an agenda. They aren't exactly being subtle about it.

So while we're on the subject of Hitler, Goebbels would be proud of the work of "News Papers" such as the Daily Mail.
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Message 1164562 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 18:25:18 UTC - in response to Message 1164520.
Last modified: 22 Oct 2011, 18:25:33 UTC

Well, if you've glanced thru the varous threads out here, you know that Dull has an agenda. So use of charged words is normal speech for the lad. In fact, his primary goal here is to irritate -- he's quite good at it. Irritation for irritation's sake.

That and claiming that he makes mega-bucks as a day trader -- he has a need to declare and demonstrate that as core competency.



That's a fricken awesome use of emotive negative words in the context of these protests and shows absolutely no attempt and being unbiased. LMAO.


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Message 1164575 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 18:47:27 UTC

Well done ES, 7/10, not bad. Actually as I have said before, I am getting disappointed with the Mail, over the last year is is not a patch on the incisive paper it once was :-(

And I will say, that the post I made about Hitler, was BEFORE I had seen the Mail article about it. Those words came direct from me, and from nowhere else. The fact that Mail appears to agree is coincedental.

I support the Occupy movement wholeheartedly, these big businesses, banks, and financial institutions need to get it through their thick heads, that the man in the street, or the Clapham Omnibus, won't put up with being exploited any more in this way.

But using a soft target like St. Pauls is out of order, and has to stop. I therfore stand by my comments about the slurry treatment. Shut down any bank you like including the Bank of England if you want, but leave the Cathedral alone.

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Message 1164605 - Posted: 22 Oct 2011, 20:58:11 UTC - in response to Message 1164575.

Well done ES, 7/10, not bad. Actually as I have said before, I am getting disappointed with the Mail, over the last year is is not a patch on the incisive paper it once was :-(

And I will say, that the post I made about Hitler, was BEFORE I had seen the Mail article about it. Those words came direct from me, and from nowhere else. The fact that Mail appears to agree is coincedental.

I support the Occupy movement wholeheartedly, these big businesses, banks, and financial institutions need to get it through their thick heads, that the man in the street, or the Clapham Omnibus, won't put up with being exploited any more in this way.

But using a soft target like St. Pauls is out of order, and has to stop. I therfore stand by my comments about the slurry treatment. Shut down any bank you like including the Bank of England if you want, but leave the Cathedral alone.


Why is St. Paul's a "soft" target?

You do know that the head of the Church and the Head of State are one and the same person?
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Message 1164699 - Posted: 23 Oct 2011, 5:53:59 UTC

you know that Dull has an agenda...goal here is to irritate...

I wish to emulate My Favorite Canadian Author

...bucks as a day trader

Many of The Occupiers, while Protesting, with "Down with The Greedy Corporations" being Chanted in the background, will Whip Out their iPhones, Blackberries, etc. and Pull The Trigger on stock trades. You know, to make a few quid/bucks/dinars/lire, etc. during these idle hours of World Change.

MegaDull

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