Einstein was wrong?


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Profile Chris S
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Message 1154981 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 18:32:48 UTC
Last modified: 22 Sep 2011, 18:33:06 UTC

Oh dear, Albert!

LHC results

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Message 1154991 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 19:20:25 UTC - in response to Message 1154981.
Last modified: 22 Sep 2011, 19:20:43 UTC

Oh dear, Albert!

LHC results

Very interesting indeed! Even though it was only neutrinos, and a tiny fraction faster, this is very interesting if it holds to scrutiny.

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Message 1155006 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 20:05:18 UTC - in response to Message 1154991.

Oh dear, Albert!

LHC results

Very interesting indeed! Even though it was only neutrinos, and a tiny fraction faster, this is very interesting if it holds to scrutiny.

I wonder if they have taken into account the rotation of the Earth and the Earth's orbital velocity for relative distance, velocity, and Coriolis effects?...

It's all relative!

Or even... Are they suffering timing skew if using GPS as the coordinating timing source?

As usual, the general public articles do not give enough detail to make an educated guess... I'll guess some systemic error will be found...

Interesting all the same!

Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1155028 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 21:44:49 UTC
Last modified: 22 Sep 2011, 21:45:02 UTC

Early days, so let's not toss out the baby with the bath water just yet. :P

Neutrinos are such bizarre things. And the conflict between the Quanta (very small things) and Relativity (very large things) has been around since the 1920's.

Should be interesting to see how it all settles out, but I would suspect some error in measurement somewhere.
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Message 1155030 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 22:03:25 UTC

This would be good news if results can be verified, the laws of science are there
to be broken. This result could be of the sort being looked for by those researching for evidence of those extra dimensions suspected to exist in our universe. If this neutrino has managed to travel in excess of the speed of light it may have done so by loosing some of it's mass. If this were the case then this is what those scientists looking for multiple universes would expect a particle in our universe to be able to do first. Although this exceeding the speed of light has "possibly" been achieved under controlled conditions the loss of some of the mass of this particle seems to have some bearing in relation to other universes around us imposing their effect upon us in this way. So hopefully the LHC results
can be verified and a new chapter in Earth science can begin.

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Message 1155068 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 0:37:49 UTC
Last modified: 23 Sep 2011, 1:05:05 UTC

Plus sun travels at 220-300km/s of speed relative to Milky way and the universe so possibly most observations on earth or inside our solar system have certain faults.

From common reader's point of view it is kind of too naive to limit the speed in universe since humans have not achieved full capability of observing or detecting everything in the universe.
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Message 1155094 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 1:45:37 UTC

There is still no official announcement by either CERN or Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare and no published article or preprint. It looks to me like a scoop.
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Message 1155114 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 2:54:28 UTC - in response to Message 1155094.

relativistic effects or measurement error

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Message 1155156 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 7:01:53 UTC

The announcement should be at 16.00 CEST in Geneva. If this effect is true this might explain why neutrinos were detected in the Mont Blanc tunnel at 2:56 hours UT of 23 February 1987 several hours before the optical observation of the SN1907A supernova, as reported on March 2 in the Rencontres de Physique de la Vallee d'Aoste.A second neutrino burst at 7:35 UT was registered at Kamiokande, IMB and Baksan.
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Message 1155171 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 8:28:12 UTC

There is press release from CERN:
Press release
Tullio
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Message 1155179 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 9:23:12 UTC - in response to Message 1155171.

There is press release from CERN:
Press release

Very interesting...

Looking for the earthly 'mundane':

I wonder if their distance measurement is the straight line path or the (slightly longer) curved over-the-ground path between the sites...

I also wonder if they observe (expected) tidal effects in their measurements if they run continuously over a 48-hour period or more...

And then, how have they confirmed their 20ns synchronisation accuracy?


Do they have a forum for discussion/conjecture?

Keep searchin',
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Message 1155181 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 9:27:47 UTC - in response to Message 1155156.
Last modified: 23 Sep 2011, 10:07:44 UTC

The announcement should be at 16.00 CEST in Geneva. If this effect is true this might explain why neutrinos were detected in the Mont Blanc tunnel at 2:56 hours UT of 23 February 1987 several hours before the optical observation of the SN1907A supernova, as reported on March 2 in the Rencontres de Physique de la Vallee d'Aoste.A second neutrino burst at 7:35 UT was registered at Kamiokande, IMB and Baksan.
Tullio


The speed of light being set at a constant is far too restrictive in it's implications as applicable to physics. Again, if results are verified then once again if given the chance Einstein will again kick himself for it. His math showed that light itself could travel faster than that speed he observed it at. He thought his math was wrong so fixed the speed of light at a constant. He was cleverer than even he even realised himself to be. He should have believed in his math for this error he made stopped him from making even greater discoveries.
Scientists have already stated that if the results from the LHC are correct this has had the effect on science akin to stopping us from having the I.box available back in the early 1950's....it has held up scientific thinking by 60 years. My feelings are that this LHC discovery, if correct, will indicate a fifth dimension at work or evidence of other universes being able to interact with ours. I favour this is evidence of extra dimensions coming into play where the neutrino is, although travelling slower than light, can actually cut down on the distance it has to travel via it's interaction with another dimension in a way that light can not....my fingers are crossed.

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Message 1155198 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 11:38:40 UTC - in response to Message 1155179.

There shall be a webcast at 16.00 PM CEST from CERN.
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Message 1155215 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 12:39:30 UTC

It might be worth remembering that Einsteins laws were formulated in the early 1900's. I wonder if he were alive today with our current knowledge, whether he would modify his laws. I don't think he knew about negative mass and anti-matter to add that into his equations.

In any case billionths of a second over the speed of light means nothing to us in real life any way. What we need is to find hundreds of times the speed of light!!!

Warp speed

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Message 1155219 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 12:49:09 UTC - in response to Message 1155215.

it would be nice to be able to get something a bit larger than a neutrino to travel faster than light as well. Perhaps developing a neutrino warp bubble to assist in FTL travels
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Message 1155228 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:25:12 UTC
Last modified: 23 Sep 2011, 13:33:17 UTC

I am pretty sure that within next 100 years some other project would possibly prove something greater speed or something infinite phenomenons. Because energy supplies to the research labs increase every few years so the equipment capabilities improve decade by decade.

This time it is luxurity of CERN energy richness is allowing them to observe this new speed phenomenon.
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Message 1155229 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:29:31 UTC

Neutrinos have always been interesting, as they pass right through the Earth and everything on it.

Steve
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Message 1155230 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:34:42 UTC - in response to Message 1155219.

it would be nice to be able to get something a bit larger than a neutrino to travel faster than light as well. Perhaps developing a neutrino warp bubble to assist in FTL travels


Skild, Going by what scientist are saying about this LHC discovery that if true
it would mean that we could now experience the effect of a happening before that happening actually occurred. Seems quite spookie to me but since these boffins have to be respected for their abilities, knowledge and understanding of facts then one has to believe them at the moment. So to this end I wonder if the neutrino experiment is not actually proof that this particle has exceeded the speed of light but more to the fact that it has managed to shorten the distance it had to travel relevant to that of light travelling between the two set points set up in this experiment. To put it more plainly the neutrino is able to interact with a hidden dimension in a way that light can not. To explain this, say you are the photon and a duck is the neutrino and you both set off to cross a field and as expected you walk faster than the duck. In the middle of this field is a lake you have to walk around this lake to get to the other end of the field whereas the duck is able to swim across it. Because, although you are moving faster than the duck, you had to walk around this lake and it meant that by the time you got to the other side of this field the duck got there first purely because he was able to shorten the overall distance covered because he was able to cut across the lake by swimming over it. You were moving faster than him but he gained on you through having the shorter distance to travel. The hidden dimensions suspected to exist in our universe are thought to be tightly wound up hence do not interact with large mass objects but on the quantum scale these dimensions can interact with some quantum particles so have an effect on them. To this end I wonder if the LHC experiment is showing that the photon has to go around these tightly wound extra dimensions whereas the neutrino has the ability to cut through or across them.

Skild, can you supply us with a "neutrino warp bubble" drawing...just cant imagine what it would look like.

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Message 1155232 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:40:30 UTC - in response to Message 1155179.

There is press release from CERN:
Press release

Very interesting...

Looking for the earthly 'mundane':

I wonder if their distance measurement is the straight line path or the (slightly longer) curved over-the-ground path between the sites...

I also wonder if they observe (expected) tidal effects in their measurements if they run continuously over a 48-hour period or more...

And then, how have they confirmed their 20ns synchronisation accuracy?


Do they have a forum for discussion/conjecture?

Keep searchin',
Martin

That brought up a question in my mind. Photons travel as an oscillation, hence frequency. Do Neutrinos travel as a frequency, or in a straight line? Perhaps the speed is the same, but without an oscillation, the traveled distance is different, even though the measured distance from point A to point B is the same.

Steve
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Message 1155235 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:51:07 UTC - in response to Message 1155232.
Last modified: 23 Sep 2011, 13:51:39 UTC

That brought up a question in my mind. Photons travel as an oscillation, hence frequency. Do Neutrinos travel as a frequency, or in a straight line? Perhaps the speed is the same, but without an oscillation, the traveled distance is different, even though the measured distance from point A to point B is the same.

Steve


Steve, I would assume, if string theory is correct, that the neutrino would be oscillating or at least vibrating.

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