Death Penalty, the endless question


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Terror Australis
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Message 1155590 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 10:20:33 UTC

There are certain crimes where the perpetrator has proved they are outside humanity such as the Anita Cobby murder. This was not a "crime of passion" or a quick and easy death for the victim. The crime was a cold, deliberate decision to abduct, rape and then torture to death the unfortunate woman. I believe this is the type of crime that deserves the death penalty, for the ringleaders anyway.

Certainly a few of them had underpriviledged backgrounds BUT all of them still made a deliberate and concious decision to commit a particularly heinous attack on a person that was a complete stranger to them.

Beings like these may look human, but inside their heads they are something else entirely. They have no remorse and there is no hope of them being "rehabilitated" as they are genuine psychopaths. As they were only young at the time they face 40 to 50 years in goal, this means that over the term of their sentences they will cost the the rest of the population more than two million dollars each, and frankly, I just don't think they're worth the money.

To those who are against the death penalty for any reason. How would you deal with scum like this ? Keeping them in goal is a total waste of resources that could be spent on other prisoners with some hope of rehabilitation.

T.A.

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Message 1155633 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 13:55:21 UTC

Some countries had penal colonies, or let's say prision where living hell on earth for certain prisioners.

The french, in french Guiana (Pappilon is a good story about this prison). Portugal had one in Cape Vert called "tarrafal". I don't know if the US or the UK had such kind os establishements so clarification would be great.

In this prisons, the prisioner had to endure extreme weather and also extreme treatment from the prison guards and from their fellow inmates.

I believe that such prisions whould act as deterrent for certain crimes, but i'm sure that most of Human Rights organization would fight against such prisons as fierce they fight against death penalty.

Sometimes I think criminals are treated to well. Like TA just said, some criminals are just a waste of money. Society could use this resources in other things.

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Message 1155635 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 14:02:42 UTC

The whole world can not agree about the death penalty, so I doubt we have much chance here.

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Message 1155660 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 16:45:23 UTC - in response to Message 1155590.

Beings like these may look human, but inside their heads they are something else entirely. They have no remorse and there is no hope of them being "rehabilitated" as they are genuine psychopaths.


They are human, even if they have committed vile and heinous acts. That they are psychopaths indicate they acted out of impulse, much like a serial killer. They wanted to fulfill a specific desire, and no form of deterrence was going to stop them. Much like a professional hitman, they probably thought they could get away with it.

To those who are against the death penalty for any reason. How would you deal with scum like this ? Keeping them in goal is a total waste of resources that could be spent on other prisoners with some hope of rehabilitation.

T.A.


Lock them up and throw away the key.

I've already argued against deterrence as a reason to keep the death penalty. The only argument I'm seeing here is that you feel they do not possess any redeemable qualities and killing them would be cheaper than keeping them alive.

I don't see why someone's life should come down to a matter of money. I don't see how you can put a price on someone's head and say, "This costs too much and you're a bad person. Time to die!"

And as far as redeemable qualities, I would hope we all agree that it depends on the individual. Certainly it is possible for someone to see the error of their ways. And if they don't, keep them locked up until they do or until they die.

Killing them will not make the bad situation go away, though it might prevent them from ever doing it again. So will keeping them in prison. I'll choose mercy over death every time.

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Message 1155665 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:00:26 UTC - in response to Message 1155633.

Some countries had penal colonies, or let's say prision where living hell on earth for certain prisioners.

...

In this prisons, the prisioner had to endure extreme weather and also extreme treatment from the prison guards and from their fellow inmates.

I believe that such prisions whould act as deterrent for certain crimes, but i'm sure that most of Human Rights organization would fight against such prisons as fierce they fight against death penalty.


What does it say about us if we advocate violence toward another human being? Even one that has done wrong. What makes the prison guard better than the inmate if he's allowed to get away with things like this? If the guard can't get away with it in society, then they shouldn't get away with it while patrolling inmates either.

What about the psychology of the guard if allowed to do these acts? Is it not possible that the moral lines might become blurred, and they may find it acceptable to be sadistic toward innocent people? If they start enjoying treating people like dirt and they find a new job other than prison guard, they would want to find a new outlet for their twisted desire to be sadistic, which means they will find victims.

Sometimes I think criminals are treated to well. Like TA just said, some criminals are just a waste of money. Society could use this resources in other things.


I don't see how that statement doesn't sound the least bit scary to you. I've already given my argument against the "it costs too much to keep them alive" in my response to TA.

I think its just as wrong to be in favor of being mean to another human being as it is to kill them for violent acts. Any way you slice it, how we treat others, even for heinous crimes, says something about us as a civilization. Making their lives a personal hell, torturing them, killing them, all say evil and primitive things about us.

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Message 1155685 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:31:09 UTC - in response to Message 1155633.

The french, in french Guiana (Pappilon is a good story about this prison). Portugal had one in Cape Vert called "tarrafal". I don't know if the US or the UK had such kind os establishements so clarification would be great.


Parts of Australia, the US and India are a former penal colonies of the UK. The US has what is effectively a penal colony that is currently in use.

____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Message 1155702 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:57:32 UTC

Putting a Human in prison and throwing away The key is Not Humane.

Keeping a Human in prison until they die is Not Humane.

Giving 3 Hots and a Cot and Medical Care and a Substantial Education until the day they die is Not Humane for The Free People who do not get the Same Humane Treatment.

I Believe The Death Penalty is Humane and hope it continues forever. It should be carried out much much quicker. For Humane Purposes and Cost Savings.

Thank Goodness there are enough people who are Not Bleeding Hearts to Keep The Scale of Justice weighted in Favor of the Death Penalty.

I know it is Possible a Death Penalty Prisoner or a Prisoner For Life could, while in Prison, Invent/Concieve/Develop something or Influence Someone to Do Same, which could Change HumanKind for The Better, and if Put To Death this Achievement would Never Be, but, I Don't Care.

Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull

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Message 1155712 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 19:34:50 UTC - in response to Message 1155702.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 19:35:16 UTC

Putting a Human in prison and throwing away The key is Not Humane.

Keeping a Human in prison until they die is Not Humane.

Giving 3 Hots and a Cot and Medical Care and a Substantial Education until the day they die is Not Humane for The Free People who do not get the Same Humane Treatment.

I Believe The Death Penalty is Humane and hope it continues forever. It should be carried out much much quicker. For Humane Purposes and Cost Savings.

Thank Goodness there are enough people who are Not Bleeding Hearts to Keep The Scale of Justice weighted in Favor of the Death Penalty.

I know it is Possible a Death Penalty Prisoner or a Prisoner For Life could, while in Prison, Invent/Concieve/Develop something or Influence Someone to Do Same, which could Change HumanKind for The Better, and if Put To Death this Achievement would Never Be, but, I Don't Care.

Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull


To which could be added that putting to death people who are incorrectly convicted of a capital crime is inhumane. The list of those that were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crimes for which they were convicted continues to grow. To my mind it is quite sensible to ensure a fallible justice system does not have absolute measures at its disposal.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155713 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 19:38:07 UTC - in response to Message 1155702.



Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull

If you're gonna go that route and wanna try to make it more of a deterrent...
I suggest public, televised execution.
By something graphic. Like, maybe, drawing and quartering.
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Message 1155720 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 19:59:43 UTC - in response to Message 1155635.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 20:01:04 UTC

The whole world can not agree about the death penalty, so I doubt we have much chance here.

I think you'll find that the world is moving away from the death penalty.

Amnesty International has a list of countries that retain the death penalty for ordinary crimes

"Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belize, Botswana, Chad, China, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Cuba, Dominica, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Guatemala, Guinea, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Libya, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Taiwan, Thailand, Trinidad And Tobago, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States Of America, Vietnam, Yemen, Zimbabwe."

From wikipedia World death penalty map

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Message 1155732 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 20:32:57 UTC - in response to Message 1155660.

They are human

That pesky number one.
1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.


Is a thing that is incapable of feeling empathy towards another, human? Is this not one of the requisites for being human?

Now it is time to ask a question. If Hitler had been captured alive, should he have been given a life sentence?

____________

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Message 1155743 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 21:05:53 UTC - in response to Message 1155713.



Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull

If you're gonna go that route and wanna try to make it more of a deterrent...
I suggest public, televised execution.
By something graphic. Like, maybe, drawing and quartering.


The data supporting the notion that death penalty has a deterrent effect is slim at best:

since capital-eligible homicides remain stable over time while the rate of other homicides declines. This also is true when we isolate county-level trends in Texas, the state that has carried out more than one third of all executions in the United States since [the re-introduction of the death penalty in the US]. This is the opposite of what would be predicted from economic theories of death penalty deterrence.


Page 279 of this source. It strikes me as a somewhat perverse argument to suggest that the death penalty has a deterrent effect when rates decline for homicide categories where the penalty is not an option, while rates remain stable for homicide categories where the penalty is an option.

In 1975 a paper by Isaac Ehrlich that perfomed an analysis of murder rates and the death penalty was published in the American Economic Review. This paper was widely publicized and was noted in the Supreme Court's judgment reintroducing the death penalty. Some readers may remember the paper's conclusion that "an additional execution per year over the period in question may have resulted, on average, in 7 or 8 fewer murders" (page 414).

Ehrlich's analysis was based on a data set from 1933 to 1969. The same analysis performed on a subset of the data (the subset being the exclusion of data from 1963 onwards), shows no correlation between executions and murders (page 2 of this source). It strikes me as perverse to suggest that the deterrent effect of the death penalty started on January 1st 1963.

It seems to the advocates of the death penalty its deterrent effect appears to be self evident. Based on the above, I am not convinced they have a good case.
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Message 1155748 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 21:15:00 UTC - in response to Message 1155732.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 21:23:44 UTC

They are human

That pesky number one.
1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.


Is a thing that is incapable of feeling empathy towards another, human? Is this not one of the requisites for being human?


I prefer to go with a dictionary definition on this one and say that a human is anyone who belongs to the race of homo sapien.

If you suggest that any being incapable of feeling empathy isn't human, then how should we classify anyone with specific forms Asperger's? Less than human?

Now it is time to ask a question. If Hitler had been captured alive, should he have been given a life sentence?


Yes. I'll even state that Osama Bin Laden should have been given a life sentence as well.

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Message 1155750 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 21:16:52 UTC - in response to Message 1155732.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 21:22:51 UTC

They are human

That pesky number one.
1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.


Is a thing that is incapable of feeling empathy towards another, human? Is this not one of the requisites for being human?


It would seem odd to think so, as the word did not exist in the English language before 1909. If it were fundamental of the human condition I would have thought it would have a much older pedigree. To the best of my knowledge the word "human" is generally used to refer to members of our species, this definition depends solely on biology rather than high order mental functions.

Now it is time to ask a question. If Hitler had been captured alive, should he have been given a life sentence?


For the advocates of the deterrent effect of the death penalty (and I'm not suggesting this is your position), Hitler seems a very odd candidate to use as an example. I have to ask what purpose is served in your example in executing Hitler?
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Message 1155751 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 21:17:50 UTC - in response to Message 1155702.

Death To The Monsters. Quickly.


Its easy to feel that way when you've already stated that when you look into a mirror, you see the most ugliest person in the world, suggesting that you certainly don't have much love and respect for yourself, so certainly we couldn't expect you to love and respect something you don't understand.

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is far more humane than putting someone to death because you or others feel they have no redeemable qualities and can never possibly be useful to society.

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Message 1155845 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 3:43:03 UTC

I don't think of the death penalty as a deterent. To me its the "punishment fitting the crime".

I only advocate it for particularly horrific crimes such as the one I referred to earlier.

To me, people who commit such crimes have abrogated all their rights as a human. If a person wants their "rights", they have to respect the rights of others.

T.A.

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Message 1155860 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 5:47:09 UTC

I wonder why 'small/no' governement Tea Party Republicans are so gung ho on capital punishment (or law enforcement in general).
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Message 1155865 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 6:02:11 UTC - in response to Message 1155860.

I wonder why 'small/no' governement Tea Party Republicans are so gung ho on capital punishment (or law enforcement in general).

Wild guess, they believe in personal responsibility. With responsibility comes consequences.

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Message 1155866 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 6:05:55 UTC - in response to Message 1155750.

[quote]Now it is time to ask a question. If Hitler had been captured alive, should he have been given a life sentence?


For the advocates of the deterrent effect of the death penalty (and I'm not suggesting this is your position), Hitler seems a very odd candidate to use as an example. I have to ask what purpose is served in your example in executing Hitler?

Bobby, don't put words in my mouth. Never did I say execute Hitler. Stop being a troll.

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Message 1156053 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 18:53:52 UTC - in response to Message 1155866.

[quote]Now it is time to ask a question. If Hitler had been captured alive, should he have been given a life sentence?


For the advocates of the deterrent effect of the death penalty (and I'm not suggesting this is your position), Hitler seems a very odd candidate to use as an example. I have to ask what purpose is served in your example in executing Hitler?

Bobby, don't put words in my mouth. Never did I say execute Hitler. Stop being a troll.


I didn't say you did, I asked a similar question to yours. If not a life sentence or the death penalty, we are left with something less than a life sentence. Are you saying that you would be an advocate of a less than life sentence had Hitler been captured alive? Please note, I am not saying you would be an advocate of any of the three. For those that are not supporters of the death penalty on principle, the answer to your original Hitler question is surely not in any doubt, and the same is true for supporters of the death penalty. So what is the point of your question? To establish how inclusive people's principles are?

____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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