Death Penalty, the endless question

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Message 1154833 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 8:49:56 UTC

My opinion.....
Lock 'em up for life, no parole.

Let the Lord above sort it out later.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1154893 - Posted: 22 Sep 2011, 14:42:19 UTC - in response to Message 1154880.  

The whole point of the death penalty, or should be, is as a deterrent to others who would commit similar crimes.


The problem is, the deterrent effect simply doesn't work. As I posted in the UK Riots thread, human behavior is not deterred when the individual(s) deem the morality of taking life is negotiable in the moment.

For example, if a dude comes home and finds his wife cheating on him, and they didn't even ask him to join, and they ate the last slice of pizza, regardless of all he might know about the law, he may very well "snap" and kill. That's the whole point of snapping.

A professional hitman knows full well that killing is against the law, yet they do not believe they will get caught.

Even truly messed up individuals such as Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz all knew what they were doing was wrong by the fact that they hid their victim's bodies, but the deterrent effect did not stop them from committing their crimes.


Killing any of these people will not stop certain types of individuals from committing horrific acts of violence against other human beings in the future. If the deterrent effect actually worked, you'd think we wouldn't have any more murder.


Haven't we as a society come a bit further than the biblical lex talionis "Eye for an eye" days? The meaning of the principle Eye for an Eye is that a person who has been injured by another person returns the offending action to the originator in compensation, or that an authority does so on behalf of the injured person.

One person dead is bad enough, but why compound it with another death.


Indeed. Personal anguish and the biblical "eye for an eye" is never a good enough reason to put someone to death.
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Message 1155186 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 10:34:02 UTC - in response to Message 1155184.  

Agreed, but it must be nigh impossible to uphold that view if it was your own wife, husband, mother, father, sister or brother that had been murdered. Until that situation actually happens to someone they probably won't know how they will eventually react.

The USA is different to us over the pond in that each state has its own laws, we have one law for the whole country, excepting Scotland which has a different legal system. It would be interesting to know whether the murder rate in states without a death penalty is higher than the others i.e. does it work as a deterrent? Doesn't seem to in Texas.

I am against the death penalty, but murder should always mean life imprisonment, and it should mean life, not 20 years.


I often think how would be my reaction if someone that was dear or close to me was a victim of murderer or other hideous crime. Probably I would like to see the guy dead, but that does not mean that I don’t believe in justice or that i would take the issue in to my own hands.

Question here is if death penalty will act as deterrent, for me it does, as probably some criminals would think twice before pulling the trigger. In Europe if the access to weapons was as easy as in the US, with the laws we have, in my opinion the rate of violent crimes would increase, as criminals would feel that they would have a sense of impunity.

In advance countries like ours, the role of prisons should be not only to punish but also to rehabilitate, there are criminals that yes, can be changed, yes they did some errors in their lives due to a lot of factors and with the proper support they can became honest and valid citizens.

But my question mark goes to what to do with the ones that don’t want to be rehabilitated, some criminals go to prison and there they continue to practice the same violent acts as they were doing outside but now they practice them against the other inmates.

Some persons are just bad, very bad they don’t have any respect for human life or they will never have any sense or feeling of remorse regarding their actions.
What to do with this kind of people? Prison for life? How much prison is being really a punishment for them? IS it fair that society has to support and feed this kind of creatures?

Why should I support from my taxes a mass murderer, or a mass rapist that don’t care anything about society? Some are in prison for 20 or 25 Years and after half of the time will be out; doing the exact thing they did in the past until and if they got caught again.
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Message 1155207 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 12:16:26 UTC - in response to Message 1155184.  

Indeed. Personal anguish and the biblical "eye for an eye" is never a good enough reason to put someone to death.

Agreed, but it must be nigh impossible to uphold that view if it was your own wife, husband, mother, father, sister or brother that had been murdered. Until that situation actually happens to someone they probably won't know how they will eventually react.


Yes, in the heat of the moment, I can easily see myself feeling that way. But then I have to acknowledge that the world is larger than my selfish need for vengeance. I can only hope that in the heat of my moment (if it were to ever happen), that someone I know and trust would be able to talk to me rationally about it, and help me through my difficult time.

This is why we must respect the law, and we must all make sure that it works as its supposed to, so that as a group, we can solve the crime and send the right person to prison.
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Message 1155211 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 12:24:55 UTC - in response to Message 1155186.  

Question here is if death penalty will act as deterrent, for me it does, as probably some criminals would think twice before pulling the trigger.


I've already proven that it doesn't work against all people, which means it simply doesn't work. The only people deterred by the threat of the law are law-abiding citizens.

People who must act compulsively (serial killers), or people who act amorally (professional hitmen), or people who snap are not deterred at all. Killing these people will not prevent other people who act compulsively, amorally, or whom snap from killing.

Deterrence simply doesn't work.

Some persons are just bad, very bad they don’t have any respect for human life or they will never have any sense or feeling of remorse regarding their actions.
What to do with this kind of people? Prison for life? How much prison is being really a punishment for them? IS it fair that society has to support and feed this kind of creatures?

Why should I support from my taxes a mass murderer, or a mass rapist that don’t care anything about society? Some are in prison for 20 or 25 Years and after half of the time will be out; doing the exact thing they did in the past until and if they got caught again.


If you love life enough, you respect that killing another human being takes away from all of our civility.

I largely suspect that, if everyone who supported the death penalty were actually required to fulfill a duty to kill inmates, sort of like a jury service, most of them would not be able to do it.

And those who feel so righteous that they could easily take another human's life without ever having caused them harm personally, are very sadistic people and they need to be watched closely.
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Message 1155303 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 16:23:12 UTC - in response to Message 1155211.  

I Killed another human being while I was in the service. Is nothing that I'm proud of, but the truth is that i pulled the trigger and someone life was taken. Most of the times I think that if I didn't had fired first I would be in is place, in one word dead.

OTAN or NATO grant me a medal for courage under a combat situation and facing the enemy (What ever it is). I'm nor proud of take another person life in a combat situation. Like I said in a previous post I was in Bosnia as a Peace keeper for OTAN, and I still didn't achieved any peace of mind.

So when we speak about death sentence I'm in favour if there is no doubt about the crimes, because believe me soeme people simply don't deserve to live. I saw crimes in Bosnia that are beyond any human comprehension, maybe I’m to strict,ut is due to past experience that I don’t wish any fellow human to go through.

I’m a catholic, and for me life should be the ultimate value, but when I remember what I had saw, and the disrespect about human rights that I had assisted in Loco in Bosnia.

I’m for death sentence. Some people just don’t deserve to live. They are a menace to society and even being sentenced to life in prison is being too lenient for them.
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Message 1155324 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 16:53:30 UTC - in response to Message 1155303.  

I Killed another human being while I was in the service. Is nothing that I'm proud of, but the truth is that i pulled the trigger and someone life was taken. Most of the times I think that if I didn't had fired first I would be in is place, in one word dead.


You did what you had to do during a time of war. It is literally "kill or be killed". While I still think taking a human life is wrong, there's no reasonable expectation that you should just give up your own when someone intends to harm you.

What we are discussing here is capital punishment. That is death as a legalized form of punishment for a crime as judged by one's peers. War and military service doesn't exactly fall into that situation.

I’m for death sentence. Some people just don’t deserve to live. They are a menace to society and even being sentenced to life in prison is being too lenient for them.


That's a very scary stance to take. Some extremists believe that the western world are a menace to society and need to be killed. What if alien visitors decide that we are a menace to the universe and decide that we need to be exterminated? Who exactly gets to decide who "deserves" to die and who doesn't? I don't believe that power should be held by our or any government. Government should be in the business of protecting its borders, not killing people.

As I said before, the desire to kill and the desire to want someone to kill (as in, being in favor of the death penalty) is a very barbaric instinct, and one we should not hold in a civilized society.
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Message 1155367 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 19:01:32 UTC - in response to Message 1155318.  

But we are talking here about peacetime, or at least probably the only level of peace we'll currently ever know. That is a bit of a different matter. I would suggest that someone sentenced at age 25 to life imprisonment, would probably live to at least 75. 50 years behind bars is not a pleasant thought. After 20 years they might wish they had been injected in the first place.


Just a reminder, military law, even in peace is different than civil law. Example. Portugal abolished the death sentence in the 19th century, but after WWI there was two guys who where hanged for treason, just because they where judge in a military court, and in court martial law, sentence of death is still applied.

Most of the countries have this kind of sumary execution in their miltary laws. Thank to god, that is most of the cases, civil/common law overruns militay law or (Canonic law/Vatican where divorce is still forbidhen.)

To sumarize, I have my opinion, not only to death sentence but regarding the prison system.

I would agree, that death sentence is the ultimate sentence and something so serious that should only be used in very Particular circumstances, detailed by the law. Governments can make some stupid laws so detailed and then in such issues they are ambiguous or simply vague (example Euthanasia).

I would prefer that someone would be incarcerated for its entire life in complete isolation, than what is happening today in several countries. I know that most of the times, death can be a release and not a punishment. Maybe if the State would have the tools to make the life of a criminal so miserable that he would prefer to die to go through it, than society would have the ultimate deterrent for some crimes.

Again human rights, maybe when someone is convicted of certain kind of crimes, he should lose some rights, as the victims for sure lost them.
Difficult, discussion but the issue is where justice overcomes vengeance.
And it is a paradox that in most constititutions the first right to be defended is life, but how to react when someone violated or broken this in a very gross manner?

Life in prison and parole after 20 years because he has rights? Death sentence? Life in prison in a dark hole where he would never see the sun again?

Personally black and white situation, I would you feel about confessed a Baby/child serial killer or rapist that you would know that after 20 (in some countries 10) years would be released on parole?
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Message 1155371 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 19:29:49 UTC - in response to Message 1155367.  

I would agree that the prison sentence needs to be longer. Some changes in laws that I would be in favor of:


1) Serial killers and rapists automatically have no possibility for parole.

2) No reduction in sentence for good behavior on serious crimes against another human.

3) Life sentence means you stay in prison for the rest of your life. The only way out is if new evidence surfaces that proves your innocence or gives reasonable doubt in your role in the crime.


Of course, these are a little vague and need more definition, but its a working set of some ideas and changes I would favor.
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Message 1155386 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 20:13:06 UTC

I can fully understand that this is a very emotional issue, especially for the victims' families - the desire for revenge is understandable, almost natural.

However, I strictly oppose capital punishment. And I don't even need to argue whether society can have the right or moral justification for killing a human being, I oppose capital punishment for a different, very simple reason:

It can not be assured that no innocent people are ever executed. The risk of killing an actually innocent person, even if very small, far outweighs any potential "benefit" society could ever gain from the death penalty.

Of course, the problem also applies to life sentences without possibilty of parole. If you kill an innocent one or imprison him for the rest of his life - to him it is essentially the same thing, you're destroying his life.

That's one reason why I don't think well about life sentences without possibility of parole. No such punishment exists in my country - sentences can be a maximum of 20 years, or life sentences, but parole always remains possible. I think this seems just, since people, even murderers, can always change for the better. I can only imagine restrictions on the possibilty of parole for people who commited multiple murders or a particularly cruel one.

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Message 1155426 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 22:59:42 UTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

ICD-10

The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[2]

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6. Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
7. Persistent irritability.


I note that most cold blooded murderers are very likely to have symptoms 1, 2, and 5 and thus have Dissocial personality disorder.

Five seems very relevant to this discussion.
"Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment."
If punishment isn't going to work do we simply let them go? What are the other options? Death by cage [life no parole] or death by a quicker manner.


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Message 1155432 - Posted: 23 Sep 2011, 23:37:12 UTC - in response to Message 1155426.  

If punishment isn't going to work do we simply let them go? What are the other options? Death by cage [life no parole] or death by a quicker manner.


Death by prison. Certainly taking mercy upon someone we don't understand is far more humane than what you're implying.
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Message 1155590 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 10:20:33 UTC

There are certain crimes where the perpetrator has proved they are outside humanity such as the Anita Cobby murder. This was not a "crime of passion" or a quick and easy death for the victim. The crime was a cold, deliberate decision to abduct, rape and then torture to death the unfortunate woman. I believe this is the type of crime that deserves the death penalty, for the ringleaders anyway.

Certainly a few of them had underpriviledged backgrounds BUT all of them still made a deliberate and concious decision to commit a particularly heinous attack on a person that was a complete stranger to them.

Beings like these may look human, but inside their heads they are something else entirely. They have no remorse and there is no hope of them being "rehabilitated" as they are genuine psychopaths. As they were only young at the time they face 40 to 50 years in goal, this means that over the term of their sentences they will cost the the rest of the population more than two million dollars each, and frankly, I just don't think they're worth the money.

To those who are against the death penalty for any reason. How would you deal with scum like this ? Keeping them in goal is a total waste of resources that could be spent on other prisoners with some hope of rehabilitation.

T.A.
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Message 1155633 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 13:55:21 UTC

Some countries had penal colonies, or let's say prision where living hell on earth for certain prisioners.

The french, in french Guiana (Pappilon is a good story about this prison). Portugal had one in Cape Vert called "tarrafal". I don't know if the US or the UK had such kind os establishements so clarification would be great.

In this prisons, the prisioner had to endure extreme weather and also extreme treatment from the prison guards and from their fellow inmates.

I believe that such prisions whould act as deterrent for certain crimes, but i'm sure that most of Human Rights organization would fight against such prisons as fierce they fight against death penalty.

Sometimes I think criminals are treated to well. Like TA just said, some criminals are just a waste of money. Society could use this resources in other things.

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Message 1155660 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 16:45:23 UTC - in response to Message 1155590.  

Beings like these may look human, but inside their heads they are something else entirely. They have no remorse and there is no hope of them being "rehabilitated" as they are genuine psychopaths.


They are human, even if they have committed vile and heinous acts. That they are psychopaths indicate they acted out of impulse, much like a serial killer. They wanted to fulfill a specific desire, and no form of deterrence was going to stop them. Much like a professional hitman, they probably thought they could get away with it.

To those who are against the death penalty for any reason. How would you deal with scum like this ? Keeping them in goal is a total waste of resources that could be spent on other prisoners with some hope of rehabilitation.

T.A.


Lock them up and throw away the key.

I've already argued against deterrence as a reason to keep the death penalty. The only argument I'm seeing here is that you feel they do not possess any redeemable qualities and killing them would be cheaper than keeping them alive.

I don't see why someone's life should come down to a matter of money. I don't see how you can put a price on someone's head and say, "This costs too much and you're a bad person. Time to die!"

And as far as redeemable qualities, I would hope we all agree that it depends on the individual. Certainly it is possible for someone to see the error of their ways. And if they don't, keep them locked up until they do or until they die.

Killing them will not make the bad situation go away, though it might prevent them from ever doing it again. So will keeping them in prison. I'll choose mercy over death every time.
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Message 1155665 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:00:26 UTC - in response to Message 1155633.  

Some countries had penal colonies, or let's say prision where living hell on earth for certain prisioners.

...

In this prisons, the prisioner had to endure extreme weather and also extreme treatment from the prison guards and from their fellow inmates.

I believe that such prisions whould act as deterrent for certain crimes, but i'm sure that most of Human Rights organization would fight against such prisons as fierce they fight against death penalty.


What does it say about us if we advocate violence toward another human being? Even one that has done wrong. What makes the prison guard better than the inmate if he's allowed to get away with things like this? If the guard can't get away with it in society, then they shouldn't get away with it while patrolling inmates either.

What about the psychology of the guard if allowed to do these acts? Is it not possible that the moral lines might become blurred, and they may find it acceptable to be sadistic toward innocent people? If they start enjoying treating people like dirt and they find a new job other than prison guard, they would want to find a new outlet for their twisted desire to be sadistic, which means they will find victims.

Sometimes I think criminals are treated to well. Like TA just said, some criminals are just a waste of money. Society could use this resources in other things.


I don't see how that statement doesn't sound the least bit scary to you. I've already given my argument against the "it costs too much to keep them alive" in my response to TA.

I think its just as wrong to be in favor of being mean to another human being as it is to kill them for violent acts. Any way you slice it, how we treat others, even for heinous crimes, says something about us as a civilization. Making their lives a personal hell, torturing them, killing them, all say evil and primitive things about us.
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Message 1155685 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:31:09 UTC - in response to Message 1155633.  

The french, in french Guiana (Pappilon is a good story about this prison). Portugal had one in Cape Vert called "tarrafal". I don't know if the US or the UK had such kind os establishements so clarification would be great.


Parts of Australia, the US and India are a former penal colonies of the UK. The US has what is effectively a penal colony that is currently in use.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155702 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 17:57:32 UTC

Putting a Human in prison and throwing away The key is Not Humane.

Keeping a Human in prison until they die is Not Humane.

Giving 3 Hots and a Cot and Medical Care and a Substantial Education until the day they die is Not Humane for The Free People who do not get the Same Humane Treatment.

I Believe The Death Penalty is Humane and hope it continues forever. It should be carried out much much quicker. For Humane Purposes and Cost Savings.

Thank Goodness there are enough people who are Not Bleeding Hearts to Keep The Scale of Justice weighted in Favor of the Death Penalty.

I know it is Possible a Death Penalty Prisoner or a Prisoner For Life could, while in Prison, Invent/Concieve/Develop something or Influence Someone to Do Same, which could Change HumanKind for The Better, and if Put To Death this Achievement would Never Be, but, I Don't Care.

Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull
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Message 1155712 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 19:34:50 UTC - in response to Message 1155702.  
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 19:35:16 UTC

Putting a Human in prison and throwing away The key is Not Humane.

Keeping a Human in prison until they die is Not Humane.

Giving 3 Hots and a Cot and Medical Care and a Substantial Education until the day they die is Not Humane for The Free People who do not get the Same Humane Treatment.

I Believe The Death Penalty is Humane and hope it continues forever. It should be carried out much much quicker. For Humane Purposes and Cost Savings.

Thank Goodness there are enough people who are Not Bleeding Hearts to Keep The Scale of Justice weighted in Favor of the Death Penalty.

I know it is Possible a Death Penalty Prisoner or a Prisoner For Life could, while in Prison, Invent/Concieve/Develop something or Influence Someone to Do Same, which could Change HumanKind for The Better, and if Put To Death this Achievement would Never Be, but, I Don't Care.

Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull


To which could be added that putting to death people who are incorrectly convicted of a capital crime is inhumane. The list of those that were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crimes for which they were convicted continues to grow. To my mind it is quite sensible to ensure a fallible justice system does not have absolute measures at its disposal.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1155713 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 19:38:07 UTC - in response to Message 1155702.  



Death To The Monsters. Quickly.

Dull

If you're gonna go that route and wanna try to make it more of a deterrent...
I suggest public, televised execution.
By something graphic. Like, maybe, drawing and quartering.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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