Death Penalty, the endless question


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Profile Dr Imaginario
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Message 1154432 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 9:20:45 UTC

In the US, state of Georgia a man is going to be executed after 20 Years of appeals.

It seems that in 1989 Troy Davis shoot to death a police officer in the parking lot of a burger shop.

The entire process is cloudy and after all this years there are still some doubts if Mr Troy Davis was the person to pull trigger.

Personally I accept the death sentence for certain crimes and in certain circumstances, however I also know that in cases like this where everything is to unclear, if it should be applied.

The Judicial power needs to take one thing in consideration, the death penalty is the only one that after applied can’t be reversed if a judicial error is found and proved that occurred.

I believe that what would be fairer is if there are still doubts on the process that the sentence should be commuted to life in prison, in one way if Mr Travis is really guilty justice will be served in one way.

I can’t speak for the relatives of the police officer that was brutally murdered, but if i was in their place i would want justice and the last thing I would like to hear is that after the execution of Mr Travis some Human Rights organization had found some new proof that would create minimum reasonable doubt around the guilt of Mr. Travis.

Justice yes, but not at any price.

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Message 1154485 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 13:57:53 UTC - in response to Message 1154432.

I am vehemently against capital punishment. I do not care even if he was guilty, he's still a human being and we should show that we are better than him by not sending him to the same fate (remember, I'm still assuming here).

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Message 1154492 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 14:21:46 UTC

I agree

Capital punishment is a no go, but corporal punishment is ...
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Message 1154493 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 14:22:32 UTC

In principle, I have no issue with the death penalty in the most heinious cases.

However I find it un-evenly applied based on a racial and socio-economic basis.
When Exxon executives are subject to it for their murders, then we might be getting "fair" about it.

I simply see no reason to support in costly prisons those who hold no value to the life of others. Until there is a cure, there is an end.
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Message 1154504 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 14:54:51 UTC - in response to Message 1154492.

I completely disagree with corporal punishment as well.

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Message 1154507 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:02:41 UTC - in response to Message 1154493.

I simply see no reason to support in costly prisons those who hold no value to the life of others. Until there is a cure, there is an end.


I value all life, even those lives that I do not understand.


The desire to kill and the desire to want someone to kill is a very barbaric instinct, and one we should not hold in an advanced civilization.

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Message 1154509 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:18:54 UTC - in response to Message 1154507.

I simply see no reason to support in costly prisons those who hold no value to the life of others. Until there is a cure, there is an end.


I value all life, even those lives that I do not understand.


The desire to kill and the desire to want someone to kill is a very barbaric instinct, and one we should not hold in an advanced civilization.


I simply see it as there are some people too dangerous to allow to live.

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Message 1154510 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:20:26 UTC - in response to Message 1154509.

I simply see it as there are some people too dangerous to allow to live.


So we keep them locked up, which is why we have places to keep them. If we're worried about the cost to keep them alive, feed them cheaper food.

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Message 1154514 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:27:07 UTC

I’m from a country that was one of the first to forbid the death sentence. There are several opinions about why this sentence should never be applied, like it’s against human rights, if applied to many times it will escalate crime in to more violent one, or it is the only sentence where there is no coming back if there is a judicial error.

Like in my last post I’m in favour of the death sentence in certain crimes, I know that sometimes everything is not black and white, and at court there is a lot of grey areas, but even so, there are cases where I ask myself why the society has to support criminals that would never be rehabilitated and in fact they will do the same thing if they have the chance. Some NGO’s talk about human rights, and what about the rights of the victims that this criminals have violated in conscience, where is justice here?

I’m against torture and corporal punishment, as in not only inhuman but also not effective, but I’m not in favour of protecting too much the criminals. Society can’t help those who don’t want to be helped.

In the case I mentioned, the situation is being dragged for 20 years, for me there are serious doubts about the case, and if the sentence was not based in racial criteria, as the police officer that was shoot was white, and the convicted criminal is black.

In this case if I was a judge I would go for prison in life, than to apply the death sentence but in the case of the Norway bombings, I would go for death immediately.

To summarize my opinion, I believe that Death Sentence is valid but needs to be used with extreme care by society as it as a lot of pros and cons, and it’s a sentence that can’t be reversed.

I’m also against corporal punishments, and they will not avoid most of the crimes, it is proved that will only turn them more violent, as the criminal at one point will not have anything to lose.

Anyway, justice needs to be swift and accurate, and the scale must always be balanced and not use several measures according to race, religion and social criteria.

If something that is made by man that needs to be close to perfection is justice, this is one area that governments worldwide and also the states in the US should give close attention and have extreme care to avoid grey areas.

At the end we all want justice for the victims and their families, which rights where violated in the most brutal ways. examples (murderer, rape, child abuse).

In some crimes you will not kill the victim, but you will destroy her soul in one way that it will never recover.

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Message 1154516 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:29:12 UTC - in response to Message 1154510.

I simply see it as there are some people too dangerous to allow to live.


So we keep them locked up, which is why we have places to keep them. If we're worried about the cost to keep them alive, feed them cheaper food.

There is no reason to have a lock on the cell door of someone sentenced to no parole. Weld it shut. Too bad if they have a medical problem and don't get treated. The sentence is to die in a cage. The shorter they live the less resources society wastes on them.

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Message 1154517 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:33:51 UTC - in response to Message 1154514.

Anyway, justice needs to be swift and accurate, and the scale must always be balanced and not use several measures according to race, religion and social criteria.

...

At the end we all want justice for the victims and their families, which rights where violated in the most brutal ways. examples (murderer, rape, child abuse).


I disagree. Vengeance is hot and swift. The Law is cold and methodical so that, as a group, we can think more clearly. Personal anguish is never a good reason to want someone killed.

In some crimes you will not kill the victim, but you will destroy her soul in one way that it will never recover.


Agreed, and victims of violent crime (or any crime) need all the help they can get in overcoming their personal loss. We have support groups and professionals for that very reason.

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Message 1154519 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:37:11 UTC - in response to Message 1154516.

I simply see it as there are some people too dangerous to allow to live.


So we keep them locked up, which is why we have places to keep them. If we're worried about the cost to keep them alive, feed them cheaper food.

There is no reason to have a lock on the cell door of someone sentenced to no parole. Weld it shut. Too bad if they have a medical problem and don't get treated. The sentence is to die in a cage. The shorter they live the less resources society wastes on them.


I agree with the "less resources society wastes" on criminals part, but I don't know if I could sit by and watch anyone writhe in pain for whatever reason. That's something a cold-hearted person would do, not one who values all life.

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Message 1154524 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:50:07 UTC - in response to Message 1154517.

[quote]Anyway, justice needs to be swift and accurate, and the scale must always be balanced and not use several measures according to race, religion and social criteria.

...

At the end we all want justice for the victims and their families, which rights where violated in the most brutal ways. examples (murderer, rape, child abuse).


I disagree. Vengeance is hot and swift. The Law is cold and methodical so that, as a group, we can think more clearly. Personal anguish is never a good reason to want someone killed.

OZZ, to clarify I was not talking about Vengeance, I'm talking about justice.
I'm against popular mobs, taking justice by our own hands and vengeance. Justice/Law, like you wrote is methodical cold and have the principal that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise.

However, I have to disagree that someone is spending 20 years in appeals or that some cases it takes years to go to trial and to have a sentence.

My point is that the Juditial System needs to work properly and not only to protect the victims and their families but also the rights of the accused during the process.

I know that you are agains capital punishment, and respect your opinion, nevertheless, I still think that for some crimes there are people that don´t deserve to live.

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Message 1154527 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 15:52:50 UTC - in response to Message 1154519.

I simply see it as there are some people too dangerous to allow to live.


So we keep them locked up, which is why we have places to keep them. If we're worried about the cost to keep them alive, feed them cheaper food.

There is no reason to have a lock on the cell door of someone sentenced to no parole. Weld it shut. Too bad if they have a medical problem and don't get treated. The sentence is to die in a cage. The shorter they live the less resources society wastes on them.


I agree with the "less resources society wastes" on criminals part, but I don't know if I could sit by and watch anyone writhe in pain for whatever reason. That's something a cold-hearted person would do, not one who values all life.

The point being life without parole is not different than a death sentence other than the timing and manner of the death. Death by natural causes is frequently painful and for an extended period, more cruel than a needle.

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Message 1154538 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:00:36 UTC - in response to Message 1154524.

OZZ, to clarify I was not talking about Vengeance, I'm talking about justice. I'm against popular mobs, taking justice by our own hands and vengeance. Justice/Law, like you wrote is methodical cold and have the principal that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise.


When I mentioned vengeance, I was referring to the victims looking to make someone pay for their pain regardless of guilt or innocence. I agree with you that justice needs to be applied so that people are innocent until proven guilty.

However, I have to disagree that someone is spending 20 years in appeals or that some cases it takes years to go to trial and to have a sentence.


I think 20 years is a bit long myself, and it sounds like someone simply dropped the ball on the investigation. They probably rested on believing they found the perp instead of trying to prove guilt or innocence, and trying to find the right person who committed the crime.

My point is that the Juditial System needs to work properly and not only to protect the victims and their families but also the rights of the accused during the process.


I fully agree.

I know that you are agains capital punishment, and respect your opinion, nevertheless, I still think that for some crimes there are people that don´t deserve to live.


Its fine if you think people don't "deserve" to live, but no one should act upon those opinions. Not even society as a whole should act upon that view.

I fully understand that, at least here in the US, up to 63% of the population approves of capital punishment - but that still leaves 37% of us that are forced to kill against our will.

There will come a day when the science is so strong that they will be able to prove that we sent an innocent man to death. If the killing of innocence is murder, and the punishment for murder is death, then everyone in support of such a barbaric view must also themselves be put to death. This is a paradox that one cannot escape.

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Message 1154539 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:02:57 UTC

Well Doc, you sure have upturned a real can of worms here my friend! Almost probably the most contentious thread here for many a day. Will it survive until the weekend?

Capital punishment in the United Kingdom was used from the creation of the state in 1707 until the practice was abolished in the twentieth century. The last executions in the United Kingdom, by hanging, took place in 1964, prior to capital punishment being abolished for murder (in 1969 in Great Britain and in 1973 in Northern Ireland). Although not applied since, the death penalty remained on the statute book for certain other offences until 1998.

A 2010 Gallup poll showed 64% of Americans favored it in cases of murder, while 29% opposed it. When life in prison without parole is listed as a poll option, the support for the death penalty drops; one 2001 poll showed 46% of Americans would prefer the death penalty and 45% would prefer life in prison.


I will state that I am against bringing back the death penalty. In the 21st century it seems an unnecessary barbarism. However, when given a life sentence it should mean life. You should not get out in 20 years for good behaviour.

Yes it costs money to incarcerate people for many tens of years, an example here would be Rudolf Hess. But better that than letting them free again in public.

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Message 1154540 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 1154527.

The point being life without parole is not different than a death sentence other than the timing and manner of the death. Death by natural causes is frequently painful and for an extended period, more cruel than a needle.


Which is why I stated I would not support letting someone writhe in pain. If they require insulin, for example, I see nothing wrong with providing that to them, even if they are a murderer or child molester.

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Message 1154551 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:30:57 UTC - in response to Message 1154539.

Well Doc, you sure have upturned a real can of worms here my friend! Almost probably the most contentious thread here for many a day. Will it survive until the weekend?


I'm glad that here at this forum, we can all discuss such controversial issues, self improvement comes from discussions like this, and no matter what believes we have and how strong they are, if you have a open mind we can always learn from other people’s opinion.
For me a thread with this kind of issue is more mentally challenging than one about the effect of cow farts in global warming. ;)

I will state that I am against bringing back the death penalty. In the 21st century it seems an unnecessary barbarism. However, when given a life sentence it should mean life. You should not get out in 20 years for good behaviour.

Yes it costs money to incarcerate people for many tens of years, an example here would be Rudolf Hess. But better that than letting them free again in public.


Death penalty is still a paradox as any state or religion defends life as the biggest right and value, however i'm in the side that in some cases it should be applied. I don't agree that some countries like mine have as maximum sentence 25 Years (murderer in 1st degree). Is to soft and in the case of my country, as others society wants to defend human rights, but instead they are giving the impression of impunity to the criminals, How would you feel to see a serial killer or a serial rapist to be released after 10 years in prison because of good behaviour. Unfortunately there are some real cases that I can quote, at least in my country.

About Rudolph Hess, he was incarcerated until he committed suicide; if I’m not incorrect he was the only prisoner at Spandau. I think that by the law, it was excessive, as there are criminals in the UK that for much more than Rudolph Hess as done paid much less to society.

I wonder how the UK is treating now some terrorist from the Irish Republican Army? I’m sure that sometime, somehow they will be released, and for me they are just murderers.

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Message 1154557 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:47:12 UTC

Troy_Davis_Case

Just to give details about the particular case in the Thread.

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Message 1154567 - Posted: 21 Sep 2011, 16:59:20 UTC

A very pertinent observation which is happening today as we speak.

Davis is scheduled to die Wednesday at 7 p.m. EDT by injection for killing off-duty police officer Mark MacPhail, who was shot dead while rushing to help a homeless man being attacked. It is the fourth time in four years that Davis' execution has been scheduled by Georgia officials.


Davis

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