What parents? No father, and the mother works full time. Child is raised by grandmother (no grandfather either)or by no one. You will not fix public education without fixing this problem. Any Ideas ? The solution would have to be radical and draconian.

Here in the US we have created this underclass due to mis-guided welfare policies. Monetary assistance and public housing based on number of children and whether or not a father was living in the home.

Well, we have a global warming problem too, perhaps the Chinese fix works for both problems.

Well, Gary, you sure caned this thread, eh?

What parents? No father, and the mother works full time. Child is raised by grandmother (no grandfather either)or by no one. You will not fix public education without fixing this problem. Any Ideas ? The solution would have to be radical and draconian.

Here in the US we have created this underclass due to mis-guided welfare policies. Monetary assistance and public housing based on number of children and whether or not a father was living in the home.

Well, we have a global warming problem too, perhaps the Chinese fix works for both problems.

Well, Gary, you sure caned this thread, eh?

Sarge & Gary, as we both know worçd has a lot of problems and most of them we can't solve them on our own. One thing I know by experience, and most of you share the same feeling. Raising any child takes not only a lot of time and dedication, but also love.

Whem some parents ask for school to surrogate them, for sure something is quite wrong. The role of a parent "there is no desktop procedure or manual on how to be one" is not to teach, but to educate, and if so use some force. A good slap in the butt never traumatized child.

Back to the topic, the role of the school and teacher is to teach, not only about english, math, and so on, but also to enforce that in society there is a hierarchy.

And this hierarchy starts in in the family.

Question, how many of you would get out of the table after dinner without asking your dad or mom for premission?

I know that most of you love them, and most of all respect them, but no matter how sometimes they could be strik with you, know you know they where somehow right.

corporal punishment at school? not aa good idea. Good education at home yes always. Maybe some parents should attend a course on how to educate and not to facilitate.

@Bobby - I think Mods & Rockers was just a symbol of the 60's. Don't forget that we had Skinheads and Suede-heads as well plus other minority groups. It wasn't down to bad parenting just a phase that society went through. Football violence is a whole other matter altogether, and I am afraid that the UK is regularly ashamed at the behaviour of our so called supporters abroad.

Most of them have dead end low paid jobs, so at weekends they need to burn off all that aggressive energy. So, where can they go to scream and shout, F and blind, and have a good punch up after the pub? You've guessed it - the nearest football match.

I see, so Mods and Rockers, Skin and Suede heads were phases, and nothing to do with bad parenting, whereas today's "feral" youths are? I take it you have the references to support this, as it strikes me that you waving away data that does not coincide with your conclusions by applying differing criteria for assessing observations. Alternatively it is simply opinion stated as fact, a comment that seems to apply to your statements about football hooligans.

Whatever the case, these observations say nothing to address my earlier comment:

I suppose that the individuals that participated in these events were perfectly behaved whilst in school.

Which was in response to your comment that:

50 years ago we simply didn't seem to have the wilful disobedience in our schools that we are seeing today

What is the evidence to support that willful disobedience was not as prevalent 50 years ago as it is today? Please keep in mind the plural of anecdote is not data.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

John calling Bobby a troll? WTH? John, have you forgotten who Bobby is?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Sarge.

I am still waiting for my apology from John. Perhaps I should escalate and red x the offending post :-).

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

John calling Bobby a troll? WTH? John, have you forgotten who Bobby is?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Sarge.

I am still waiting for my apology from John. Perhaps I should escalate and red x the offending post :-).

Indirectly, via PMs, I think all is cool. You just didn't get the apology made to you, directly or indirectly. But the error recognized.

Agreed Sarge. See my suggestion elsewhere.

Seems to be a work in progress, which is all one can ask, right? If I don't like the results, can I cane someone? :)