UK Riots

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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1138855 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 16:07:19 UTC - in response to Message 1138847.  

So future employers won't employ the already unemployable.

Yeah, that'll help.


Yes I agree here too. I would say that on top of any court punishment
that they receive they should also do a certain amount of community
work. So bringing them into contact with the "Real world" and not just
that little introverted world that they themselves live in.
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Message 1138861 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 16:17:51 UTC

Camila Batmanghelidjh: Caring costs – but so do riots

"These rioters feel they don't actually belong to the community. For years, they’ve felt cut adrift from society

Tuesday, 9 August 2011

Shops looted, cars and buildings burnt out, young adults in hoods on the rampage.

London has woken up to street violence, and the usual narratives have emerged – punish those responsible for the violence because they are "opportunist criminals" and "disgusting thieves". The slightly more intellectually curious might blame the trouble on poor police relations or lack of policing.

My own view is that the police in this country do an impressive job and unjustly carry the consequences of a much wider social dysfunction. Before you take a breath of sarcasm thinking "here she goes, excusing the criminals with some sob story", I want to begin by stating two things. First, violence and looting can never be justified. Second, for those of us working at street level, we're not surprised by these events.

Twitter and Facebook have kept the perverse momentum going, transmitting invitations such as: "Bare shops are gonna get smashed up. So come, get some (free stuff!!!!) F... the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! Dead the ends and colour war for now. So If you see a brother... SALUTE! If you see a fed... SHOOT!"

If this is a war, the enemy, on the face of it, are the "lawless", the defenders are the law-abiding. An absence of morality can easily be found in the rioters and looters. How, we ask, could they attack their own community with such disregard? But the young people would reply "easily", because they feel they don't actually belong to the community. Community, they would say, has nothing to offer them. Instead, for years they have experienced themselves cut adrift from civil society's legitimate structures. Society relies on collaborative behaviour; individuals are held accountable because belonging brings personal benefit. Fear or shame of being alienated keeps most of us pro-social.

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.

The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.

It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.

Our leaders still speak about how protecting the community is vital. The trouble is, the deal has gone sour. The community has selected who is worthy of help and who is not. In this false moral economy where the poor are described as dysfunctional, the community fails. One dimension of this failure is being acted out in the riots; the lawlessness is, suddenly, there for all to see. Less visible is the perverse insidious violence delivered through legitimate societal structures. Check out the price of failing to care.

I got a call yesterday morning. The kids gave me a run-down of what had happened in Brixton. A street party had been invaded by a group of young men out to grab. A few years ago, the kids who called me would have joined in, because they had nothing to lose. One had been permanently excluded from six schools. When he first arrived at Kids Company he cared so little that he would smash his head into a pane of glass and bite his own flesh off with rage. He'd think nothing of hurting others. After intensive social care and support he walked away when the riots began because he held more value in his membership of a community that has embraced him than a community that demanded his dark side.

It costs money to care. But it also costs money to clear up riots, savagery and antisocial behaviour. I leave it to you to do the financial and moral sums."
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Message 1138871 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 16:30:55 UTC - in response to Message 1138847.  


Plenty of others named & shamed too

I hope they name and shame them all. I hope someone sets up a website where they are all named so that in future employers, landlords etc can identify and shun them.

So future employers won't employ the already unemployable.

Yeah, that'll help.

Yea, well thank you for writing off the 9 year olds up to school leaving age as already unemployable. But they will be unemployable if such name and shaming takes place. And rightly so.



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Message 1138893 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 17:21:25 UTC - in response to Message 1138871.  


Plenty of others named & shamed too

I hope they name and shame them all. I hope someone sets up a website where they are all named so that in future employers, landlords etc can identify and shun them.

So future employers won't employ the already unemployable.

Yeah, that'll help.

Yea, well thank you for writing off the 9 year olds up to school leaving age as already unemployable. But they will be unemployable if such name and shaming takes place. And rightly so.

Yep, so the only life left to them is to sell drugs in a gang to make money! Makes perfect sense.
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Message 1138930 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 18:18:55 UTC - in response to Message 1138893.  
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 18:46:56 UTC


Plenty of others named & shamed too

I hope they name and shame them all. I hope someone sets up a website where they are all named so that in future employers, landlords etc can identify and shun them.

So future employers won't employ the already unemployable.

Yeah, that'll help.

Yea, well thank you for writing off the 9 year olds up to school leaving age as already unemployable. But they will be unemployable if such name and shaming takes place. And rightly so.

Yep, so the only life left to them is to sell drugs in a gang to make money! Makes perfect sense.


Agreed (with your point, not your sarcasm). Then they can complain some more about those rotten kids these days, and complain about everything they're lacking to be a decent human being.

Somehow, I think we can go all the way back to the beginning of our sentient ancestors and see the same ill-fated logic and disconnected gap between generations and classes.
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Message 1138939 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 18:39:38 UTC

This sent a chill down my spine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
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Message 1138953 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:04:19 UTC

Here's another link; http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

"Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them."

I'm going to sign up when I can. It's a bit busy right now...

"The e-petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."


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Message 1138954 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:09:01 UTC - in response to Message 1138930.  


Plenty of others named & shamed too

I hope they name and shame them all. I hope someone sets up a website where they are all named so that in future employers, landlords etc can identify and shun them.

So future employers won't employ the already unemployable.

Yeah, that'll help.

Yea, well thank you for writing off the 9 year olds up to school leaving age as already unemployable. But they will be unemployable if such name and shaming takes place. And rightly so.

Yep, so the only life left to them is to sell drugs in a gang to make money! Makes perfect sense.


Agreed (with your point, not your sarcasm). Then they can complain some more about those rotten kids these days, and complain about everything they're lacking to be a decent human being.

Somehow, I think we can go all the way back to the beginning of our sentient ancestors and see the same ill-fated logic and disconnected gap between generations and classes.

If you are going to punish them, punish them, but realize that for life means you are going to have to feed, clothe and put a roof over their head for life. If you want to rehabilitate them, then rehabilitate them.

But this case is a 9 year old. Life sentence at age 9?

As to the adult offenders, we can go into different philosophies. But actions for life are for life. Deny them a way to make a living and the result is more criminals. Can society afford this?


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Message 1138957 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:16:19 UTC

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.
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Message 1138959 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:19:06 UTC - in response to Message 1138957.  

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.

Just like in Syria and Egypt.

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Message 1138962 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:23:16 UTC - in response to Message 1138957.  

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.


Yep all Twitter folks are bad folks so let's just shut it down. The ones who use it to keep in contact with family members they are concerned about will now lose that bond.

Sorry that's censorship


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Message 1138964 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:25:18 UTC - in response to Message 1138954.  


If you are going to punish them, punish them, but realize that for life means you are going to have to feed, clothe and put a roof over their head for life. If you want to rehabilitate them, then rehabilitate them.

But this case is a 9 year old. Life sentence at age 9?

As to the adult offenders, we can go into different philosophies. But actions for life are for life. Deny them a way to make a living and the result is more criminals. Can society afford this?


I think that everything is up for debate right now. The rioters probably cannot understand the anger in England right now. If a family is evicted from a council house in Salford because one of it's members have been convicted, even if it's a nine year old whose parents have been unwilling or anable to take responsibility to ensure they don't raise kids who have no regard for society, then so be it. Let them emigrate to Mars for all I care. But I do care that they are suitably punished.


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Message 1138967 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:31:21 UTC - in response to Message 1138957.  

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.


I'm sure glad SCOTUS didn't take that stance when it came to VCRs and copyright infringement in the US.

Just because a technology can be used for nefarious or malicious means, doesn't mean it should be sanctioned or censored to fit people's need to feel safe. Blame the situation, blame the people, but the technology only exists because of the inventor's attempts at making the world a better place through innovation.
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Message 1138968 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:33:12 UTC - in response to Message 1138962.  

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.


Yep all Twitter folks are bad folks so let's just shut it down. The ones who use it to keep in contact with family members they are concerned about will now lose that bond.

Sorry that's censorship

I believe that the police should do what it takes to deal with riots and looting. In the USA they shoot them. In England we want to block communications between the thugs and criminals during a riot. What's wrong with that?


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Message 1138971 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:42:26 UTC - in response to Message 1138968.  

I believe that the police should do what it takes to deal with riots and looting. In the USA they shoot them. In England we want to block communications between the thugs and criminals during a riot. What's wrong with that?


I would agree with doing what it takes within reason to deal with a situation.

Police officers in the US cannot just shoot looters and rioters unless their lives are directly in danger, and even then they had better hope that no one caught it on video afterward showing otherwise.

I personally don't think its reasonable to shut down a communications technology in hopes of scattering an organized mob. As Blurf said, you're taking it away from all those innocent people that are trying to get in touch with their loved ones too, and that's not fair to them.

Organized mobs have been around since long before Twitter and the like. They'll simply use other forms of communication to organize their efforts. Trying to take it away from them isn't really solving the problem of addressing what their unrest is all about.
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Message 1138972 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:43:20 UTC
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 19:56:30 UTC

Yep all Twitter folks are bad folks so let's just shut it down. The ones who use it to keep in contact with family members they are concerned about will now lose that bond.

Sorry that's censorship


The Home Secretary has been asked to look into the whole operation of social networking sites. This means two main things to be considered.

(1)In situations of severe civil unrest, and in the National Interest, should they be temporarily cessated.

(2)When it is clear that users of these social networking sites, are using the technonolgy to co-ordinate looting and criminal intent, then those sites should be made responsible for moderating and removing such messages.

Organized mobs have been around since long before Twitter and the like. They'll simply use other forms of communication to organize their efforts. Trying to take it away from them isn't really solving the problem of addressing what their unrest is all about


It is not about solving long term issues of problems in the community, it is about allowing the police to restore law and order to the streets, in the shortest time possible.

I am also grateful for the PM giving an assurance that the courts will enforce parenting orders, in association with the sentences being currently handed out to youngsters in court.
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Message 1138975 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:49:51 UTC - in response to Message 1138972.  

(1)In situations of severe civil unrest, and in the National Interest, should they be temporarily cessated.


Depends on the severity of the National Interest. If only small portions of the citizenry are affected then no. If the entire nation is under attack from another nation, then probably.

(2)When it is clear that users of these social networking sites, are using the technonolgy to co-ordinate looting and criminal intent, then those sites should be made responsible for moderating and removing such messages.


Absolutely not! In fact, those very messages can be helpful for study of the situation and the people involved. But in no way should a technology or a company that provides a technology should ever be held responsible for the way people use it.
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Message 1138981 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 19:56:05 UTC - in response to Message 1138975.  
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 19:57:15 UTC

(1)In situations of severe civil unrest, and in the National Interest, should they be temporarily cessated.


Depends on the severity of the National Interest. If only small portions of the citizenry are affected then no. If the entire nation is under attack from another nation, then probably.

(2)When it is clear that users of these social networking sites, are using the technonolgy to co-ordinate looting and criminal intent, then those sites should be made responsible for moderating and removing such messages.


Absolutely not! In fact, those very messages can be helpful for study of the situation and the people involved. But in no way should a technology or a company that provides a technology should ever be held responsible for the way people use it.

You have a point 0zzF4|\| and I generally agree with you. Shutting the whole thing down would not be a reasonable action by the poilice. By "curbing of social networking sites" I thought there might be technology available to the police to stop just the communication between the rioters.

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Message 1138982 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:07:27 UTC - in response to Message 1138981.  

By "curbing of social networking sites" I thought there might be technology available to the police to stop just the communication between the rioters.


I doubt anything like that is currently in place. It think what must be done as of right now is that the police or the government would have to contact the company in question and request the suspension of the accounts. Because of human rights laws in the country where the company may reside, they may not have to comply immediately with all requests. A review would likely be made into the situation and a decision would be made.

That's far too much red tape for something that spreads as quickly as an organized mob, which is why I personally believe other options or methods should be pursued. Like, I don't know, paying close attention to your constituent's mood, feelings, and opinions. Likely there had to be some clues that this was bound to happen.
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Message 1138983 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:10:46 UTC

Absolutely not! In fact, those very messages can be helpful for study of the situation and the people involved. But in no way should a technology or a company that provides a technology should ever be held responsible for the way people use it.


Well if that is your considered view, then I am very sorry to hear it. And I can assure you that you are totally out of touch with the current view of the UK parliament and the government of the United Kingdom.
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