UK Riots

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Message 1140524 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 20:22:34 UTC - in response to Message 1140511.  

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.

It happens, private landlords are very sensitive to some crimes. Asset forfeiture laws, if the building was used in the crime, the landlord can loose it. Mostly things like running a drug lab or running a house of prostitution.


I was thinking more specific to the case(s) at hand.
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Message 1140541 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 21:11:35 UTC - in response to Message 1140460.  

While I think their upbringing is certainly to blame, punishing their parents for the offenses of their children is certainly unacceptable.


The law as I believe it stands in the UK is that, parents are fully LEGALLY responsible for their childrens actions up until the age of 14, inside and outside the home. Before that age they also cannot be named in court for legal reasons. After 14, the parents have a diminished legal responsibilty from 14 to 16.

I am not sure that is 100% correct, but I would be happy to see any other information.


Currently yes, But up until 1967, parents were responsible for their offspring to the age of 21. Unfortunately, the labour government at the time decided they needed to change the law.....

...unlike labour nearly 40 years later.....introduce 100's of useless laws
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Message 1140546 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 21:33:59 UTC - in response to Message 1140524.  
Last modified: 14 Aug 2011, 21:37:39 UTC

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.

It happens, private landlords are very sensitive to some crimes. Asset forfeiture laws, if the building was used in the crime, the landlord can loose it. Mostly things like running a drug lab or running a house of prostitution.


I was thinking more specific to the case(s) at hand.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/20/local/la-me-0720-prisoner-reentry-20110720
San Francisco may bar employers, landlords from asking about arrests, convictions
July 20, 2011|By Lee Romney, Los Angeles Times
City officials are considering a law that would prohibit private employers, landlords and city contractors from inquiring about an individual's arrest or conviction history before determining whether that person is qualified for a job or housing.

If the law is approved, San Francisco would join Hawaii, New York, Massachusetts and Philadelphia in protecting most people with criminal records from blanket discrimination in the private job market. A handful of jurisdictions in Illinois and Wisconsin impose similar restrictions on landlords, and Seattle is now weighing a proposal comparable to San Francisco's that does both.


[edit]I see Philadelphia is listed here and as fining parents if their kids are caught out after curfew. Interesting. Any relationship?
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Message 1140605 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 0:24:02 UTC
Last modified: 15 Aug 2011, 0:27:01 UTC

The whole UK rioting is somewhat connected with Paris riot few years ago and middle eastern rioting. Because basic trigger events and event fuelings are all the same in those countries. Basically it is social injustice on middle/lower class or on immigrant community but keep explained with other social causes as kind of camouflage.
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Message 1140616 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 0:44:33 UTC - in response to Message 1140506.  

Mum doesn't help by getting involved with a useless git that disappears as soon as he realises she is pregnant. Left winger do gooders don't help by encouraging "affordable housing" which gets given to the wrong people, rather than those it was intended for.


Yeah, it's all the fault of the left wing do gooders (the opposite of which is, presumably, right wing do badders) that there are useless gits of boyfriends that leave behind pregnant women. If only there were more of the do badders about, these women would be looked after, right?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1140712 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 6:38:20 UTC - in response to Message 1140616.  

Mum doesn't help by getting involved with a useless git that disappears as soon as he realises she is pregnant. Left winger do gooders don't help by encouraging "affordable housing" which gets given to the wrong people, rather than those it was intended for.


Yeah, it's all the fault of the left wing do gooders (the opposite of which is, presumably, right wing do badders) that there are useless gits of boyfriends that leave behind pregnant women. If only there were more of the do badders about, these women would be looked after, right?

The point that Chris S is making is a very good one. Young couples on low or no incomes qualify for benefits help. They may have children and find the cost of their social housing completely covered. In some cases the father leaves and the woman and children remain funded by the welfare state. Some young people see this as a way to live without getting jobs, intentionally living off the State.

Both 'lefties' and 'righties' have allowed this to continue over the last 50 years of the welfare state. The way this taking advantage of the welfare system by such parents has become a way of life without any attempt to get a job or encourage their children to get a job. This has led in part (there are many other and complex reasons) to the broken and sick society eluded to by David Cameron recently.

The problems underlying the riots have been the fault in part of the previous left Labour governments as stated recently by their leader Ed Milliband. It is not a left v. right political argument but for the government/police/judicial system as a whole to find the reasons behind the riots and to identify and implement solutions.


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Message 1140720 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 7:35:22 UTC

Saw a report where amongst lots of businesses looted, one business not touched at all by The Violence. A Bookstore. There were Lots of Books in the Not Broken window.

Don't The Hoodies know Books make Good Fire?

Guess The Hoodies are doing plenty of electronic "Reading".

Ah, The Good ole Days. When a Young Person would idle The Time Away with a Good Book.

I am Null and Void and A Darwin Barnacle.
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Message 1140744 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 10:50:38 UTC

Strong words from PM Cameron, but we will see what happens.

PM Speech
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Message 1140770 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 13:00:56 UTC
Last modified: 15 Aug 2011, 13:01:18 UTC

A bit of humour I saw in another project's forums ...

My TV is broken.

I wonder if I can go back to the shop and ask for my brick back?
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1140825 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 16:58:26 UTC

Looks like handbags at dawn. I thought we were all supposed to be working together to deal with this .....

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Message 1140829 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 17:02:58 UTC - in response to Message 1140373.  
Last modified: 15 Aug 2011, 17:10:07 UTC


Now, taking this from Al Jazeera news agency, ref. the United Kingdom, http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/08/2011813174758183263.html:
    “Calls for those convicted to be stripped of their state welfare handouts and booted out of publicly owned housing were receiving growing popular support.

    Wandsworth Council in south London became the first local government to serve an eviction notice, on a tenant whose son has been charged. It will come into effect if he is convicted.”

If I get this correctly, a person may be convicted, and consequently one of his parents could be thrown on the street.

Was attempting to figure a suitable closing remark here, but am at loss of words.


Some words you might have used is that Al Jazeera have got their facts right and not twisted and sensationalised as some of the British Press. One headline in the UK on the front page of a tabloid newspaper said that a family had been evicted. As AlJazeera correctly stated, Wandsworth Council did no more that take the first step is serving notice, and it will be 6 months before their procedures will allow any eviction notice to be enforced.

As for "thrown on the street", that is your description of someone living in rented property who was broken the rules of tenancy and whose landlord has every right to get them them. The family will have to go and live somewhere else, as all of us have to live somewhere if we rent and end a tenancy for whatever reason. Instead of taking advantage of cheap council property they will have to find a private rental. Trash the coummunity around there, or steal or riot there, and I expect that the private landlord will have them out in far less than 6 months.

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Message 1140831 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 17:08:02 UTC - in response to Message 1140825.  
Last modified: 15 Aug 2011, 17:08:35 UTC

Looks like handbags at dawn. I thought we were all supposed to be working together to deal with this .....

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Miliband and the leftie Labour party have offered no solution or specific action, but only suggest an enquiry with, I presume, nothing done for some months. Meanwhile Cameron the rightie is voicing specific direction on what needs to be done, is being done and doing the job of leading the way. I say his handbag is definitley in front.

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Message 1140864 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 20:16:32 UTC - in response to Message 1140505.  

We know the drill. Mom works two jobs to get enough scratch to feed her brood and keep a roof over their heads. Dad is where? Kids come home to an empty house and raise hell and no one is there to know any better. I suppose Mom could pop home and lock the kid in a cage so it won't get into trouble.


No different to when I was a kid in the 50's & 60's. OK, so I had a dad but
both worked full time and myself, my brother and my two sisters all came home
to an empty house each day after school. Did we play-up, not likely, bought
up correctly we just all argued as to who's turn it was to have a cup
of tea waiting for mum when she got in from work. OK, so if we miss-behaved
we knew we would get a clip around the ear so this kept us on the straight
and narrow through our formative early years. As we got older so clip around
the ears disappeared and was replaced by stern talkings-to. But hey! by the time
we reached our very early teens we new societies rules so we followed them,
we knew the limits and hence kept within them. Well, clips around the ears
know are considered to be a form of child brutality. OK, so this was stopped
yet in the process no one thought about what was going to be used to replace
it with. Suddenly over night parents had to come up with another method of
child control, well, your not going to be able to do that overnight, and no,
quite a few parents obviously did not and still have not.

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Message 1140920 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 22:02:58 UTC

An alternative viewpoint.

Not to blame
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Message 1140939 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 23:18:33 UTC - in response to Message 1140920.  

An alternative viewpoint.

Not to blame


That is pretty weak superficial reporting.

More thoughtful comment is given by my ex-MP Nick Palmer:

What should we do after the riots?

... Some thoughts:

1. We have a serious problem that goes beyond immediate riot control
Like pretty well everyone else, I'm appalled at the riots and I don't think
there's any excuse for the rioters – neither political nor social nor anything
else. But we need to be clear about the underlying problem. What the riots have
exposed is what people in rough areas have known for a long time: there are a
good many people – not all of them young – who will be as rough and as
acquisitive as they think they can get away with, and who don't see themselves
as part of an organised society at all.

It's important to understand the thought process here (understanding is not the
same as supporting). A typical rioter is, say, 18, male, and in a peer group
that values (a) toughness and (b) visible prosperity – bling, fashionable
clothes, the latest electronics, etc. He hears that general disorder has
stretched the police and there are lots of smashed windows and goods for the
taking. If he joins in, he may well get some cool goods to show his friends
(even share out, gaining even more kudos), and he can show he's really hard –
not afraid of the police or anyone else. And it sounds exciting and dramatic. He
might get caught and sent to prison for a bit, but even that might build his
reputation, and anyway he'll probably get away with it. Is he going to stay at
home and watch telly? No.

Part of this is utterly alien to most of us, and part of it isn't. The instinct
to do wrong things that you think you'll get away with is completely endemic in
Britain (to an extent that it isn't elsewhere in Northern Europe in my
experience). Speed on the road except where there's a camera; buy and sell goods
and services in cash to avoid tax; fiddle your expenses (yes, MPs – and not
just MPs); award yourself a gigantic bonus because you can; misuse your position
of control if the people you're dealing with won't complain. None of these
things are violent – but then nor is nipping into an already-broken window to
pinch something. It's just that in many circles some of these things are
semi-accepted behaviour, rather as larceny is accepted behaviour in the street
gangs.

As I've said, this isn't an excuse – two or indeed ten wrongs don't make a
right, and anyway violent crime and street disorder are a different matter from
petty larceny. But there is a general problem that we have an
ultra-individualist, frontier-style society in which looking after Number One is
seen as the norm.

2. What can we do about it? ...



Whatever the mix, we do need to keep a sense of community and keep people feeling that they in some way 'belong'. Communism failed due to anonymising the people and causing everyone to lose a sense of 'ownership'...


It's our only world,
Martin


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Message 1141120 - Posted: 16 Aug 2011, 6:01:43 UTC - in response to Message 1140939.  
Last modified: 16 Aug 2011, 6:06:44 UTC

An alternative viewpoint.

Not to blame


That is pretty weak superficial reporting.

I would say so. I mean, who would go to a riot/looting with a hammer strapped to their leg? I expect the god Odin would have something to say to his son Thor if he strapped his hammer to his leg for any reason. But then Odin would probably be baffled by Thor's choice of hammer support whereas the mother of the 13 year old was OK with her son trotting off to a riot and secreting a hammer in this way because the poor little dear was frightened. Frightened 13 year olds should stay at home during a riot, shouldn't they? Enforced by their parents and not excused afterwards as something not their responsibility?

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Message 1141227 - Posted: 16 Aug 2011, 14:59:05 UTC

Acting Met Commissioner Tim Godwin rejected claims officers had held back in London.

Giving evidence to the Commons home affairs committee, he gave the example of the borough commander in Sutton who had led a "baton charge of everyone he could get out of the police station up Sutton high street".

I live closer to Sutton than Croydon, and in fact lived in Sutton from 1956 to 1969, and went to School there. I heard no reports anywhere of any trouble in the town, but I do know an Ex JP from the Sutton Bench.

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Message 1141554 - Posted: 17 Aug 2011, 11:02:51 UTC

Apparently there was some minor trouble but police acted swiftly to break it up before it got out of hand.

Sutton police video
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Message 1141995 - Posted: 18 Aug 2011, 8:49:07 UTC

"Questionable' sentences"

So far, more than 2,770 people have been arrested in connection with the riots and 1,297 people have been before the courts.

Speaking in Warrington on Wednesday, Mr Cameron said: "It's up to the courts to make decisions about sentencing, but they've decided to send a tough message and it's very good that the courts feel able to do that."

However, some MPs and campaigners have criticised the sentencing as too harsh. Lord Carlile, a Lib Dem peer and Howard League for Penal Reform president, said some decisions were "questionable".

The barrister told the BBC "ringleaders should receive very long sentences" but warned "there was an issue of proportionality" over the way people already before the courts had been treated.


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Message 1141999 - Posted: 18 Aug 2011, 9:20:16 UTC

It is worth bearing in mind that none of the sentences so far handed out have been referred to the Court of Appeal, but in time it is likely that most of them will be. It is also quite possible that they will then be reduced, except in the cases of GBH or the more serious crimes. In addition remission is normally granted for co-operation and good behaviour.

The guys that got 4 years, could have that reduced to 2 years upon appeal, and then be out in 18 months. Which may have been what the Magistrates wanted them to serve in the first place and allowed for. Had they given them 18 months they might have been out in 6. I think a reccommendation that people serve a minimum sentence is only used in cases of murder or manslaughter.

I must add that the above is my own view and has not been been confirmed by anyone else.
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