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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1137813 - Posted: 8 Aug 2011, 23:57:32 UTC - in response to Message 1137805.

I suspect his was just a trigger for a release of a lot of anger. Things from what I understand have been very bad in London with all the cuts and the unemployment. The police are known (and I have seen them) to be very heavy handed and I am not surprised that people are unhappy about the shooting of an unarmed person. I am sure if anyone here were shot their families. friends and community would be just as outraged.



Fragments of a bullet modified to maximise its destructive power were last night being analysed to cast crucial light on what happened at around 6.15pm last Thursday when police marksmen surrounded the minicab carrying Mark Duggan alongside a north London reservoir and shot him dead.

As clashes broke out for the third night running in the worst rioting seen in the capital for decades, scientists were analysing the remains of ammunition found in the radio of an armed officer involved in the arrest operation in Tottenham Hale to answer the key question of whether the 29-year-old opened fire on his pursuers moments before he died.

Investigators yesterday refused to confirm reports that initial results from the tests by the National Ballistics Intelligence Service suggested that the bullet fragments were from police-issue ammunition, meaning they could not have been from a weapon fired by Mr Duggan and casting doubt on claims that he was killed in an exchange of gunfire. According to reports last night, the suspected gang member was carrying a starter pistol modified to fire live bullets

The above is the latest news on this saga..

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Message 1137836 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 1:25:25 UTC - in response to Message 1137747.

In no way do I condone their activities, but do we actually think the best way we can handle a situation like this is through tough military support and a few sliced throats?


It would seem to me that the best way to handle the unrest is by allowing them a forum to have their voices heard, and perhaps some action from their elected representatives to alleviate their concerns.

It seems that the rioting has little to do with politics, the recession or concerns. Thugs and the criminal gangs do not like the rule of law and and are showing how criminal gangs behave against authority and the law of the land. Opportunists are diving in to loot and get some distorted fun in causing damage and ruining the community they live in.


I'm confused. Your other post said it was because some police officers murdered someone, and Chris S suggested that s/he was an alleged drug dealer.

Certainly the law must be upheld, but is capital punishment really the answer?

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Message 1137847 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:03:40 UTC

So far there is a lot of speculation in the media with some saying police were fired upon, others stating the guy was unarmed & harmless & again, others stating he was a drug dealer.

Until the facts come to light, there really is no point in trying to analyse the hows & whys.

However saying that, the areas in London where its all kicking off is well known to me, as I grew up there & even back in the 60's the areas were well known for gangland activity, even the carrying of arms.

The difference between now & then is that we had respect & care for our communites even though times were hard - a lot harder than what they are now.

Personally I think its down to a lack of morals & principiles.
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Message 1137852 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:28:45 UTC

From the BBC: Was Tottenham's riot a cry of rage?

"Was Saturday night an orgy of mindless violence or a cry of rage from a marginalised, disaffected part of society?

Riots polarise opinion and instant analysis is a dangerous game.

The images of youths torching buildings and cars, attacking police and laying waste to a community rightly anger. Never mind the sight of adults old enough to know better filling their cars with looted TVs and stolen clothes.

But it took place in a part of London where resentment by some against the police had been building for days after a 29-year-old man, Mark Duggan, was shot dead by officers in an incident the circumstances of which may not be fully understood until an Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation is completed.

... "


and some info on the shooting: From Brixton to Tottenham, inequality lies at the heart of the riots.

On Thursday evening, Mark Duggan was shot dead in by police officers in Tottenham. The IPCC immediately announced they would investigate; unusual for an organisation known for its inefficiency. The media were told that a non-police issue firearm had been recovered from the scene, and that one of the police officers had been injured. Later reports revealed a bullet found lodged in a police radio.

But it turned out that it was in fact a police bullet lodged in that radio. Presumably, ‘friendly fire’. The recovered firearm was in a sock. Mark Duggan didn’t fire a single shot. Another man executed at the hands of the police, and more misinformation from the IPCC.

...


But the shooting and the riots in Tottenham are not enough alone to explain why the riots have spread right across the UK. I witnessed the riots in 1996 in Brixton which began over protests of a death of a person in police custody. The initial protest outside the police station ended in gangs of youths running through the streets setting fire to buildings and looting (I watched from my window as they smashed in the Job Centre across the street and set fire to the Carpet store on the corner.)

Those riots did not spread outside Brixton or beyond the community directly affected.

Now we have disturbances right across the UK. The death of Mark Duggan is clearly the spark, but only a symptom of the root cause. The tragedy is that people are destroying their own areas and local businesses which is often what happens during these sorts of uprisings.

To quote something I saw earlier:

"When you cut facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people into deeper poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice, the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries." - "A riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King.

When people come from poor disenfranchised backgrounds they simply don't have the wherewithal to make themselves heard in a productive or meaningful ways. It's not lack of morals & principals, it's lack of education, or opportunities and a feeling that they don't matter to society.
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Message 1137856 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:30:51 UTC - in response to Message 1137847.

Until the facts come to light, there really is no point in trying to analyse the hows & whys.


Personally, I hope we can keep trying to analyze the hows & whys so as a group, we can react a little more intelligently and without blind emotion.

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Message 1137861 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 2:34:20 UTC - in response to Message 1137852.

"When you cut facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people into deeper poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice, the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries." - "A riot is the language of the unheard." Martin Luther King.

When people come from poor disenfranchised backgrounds they simply don't have the wherewithal to make themselves heard in a productive or meaningful ways. It's not lack of morals & principals, it's lack of education, or opportunities and a feeling that they don't matter to society.


Well stated.

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Message 1137874 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 3:18:24 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 3:18:43 UTC

One is not born with morals or principals, they are achieved via education.

As for continuing analysing so it can be better dealt with? In that case, it seems that all the analysing already done has failed miserably!

Brixton April 1981 & September 1985, Toxteth July 1981, Tottenham October 1985, these were not pleasant to witness or see on one's tv, but they have similar reasons as this weeks riots, so it looks like society hasn't learnt its lessons well.

As for the April 81 riots in Brixton, our squadron actually drove through there on our return from exercises & the best thing I had seen was the rioters vacate the road to let us pass - I wonder why? Considering we were armed soldiers maybe?

Unfortunately, in this case I agree with the politicians here - no troops! I don't wish to see the mainland turn into another Northern Ireland fiasco.

The problem here is that there are or will be too many committees/quangos with bleeding heart liberals discussing the hows & whys rather than debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurences & attempting to force the authorities to act accordingly.

As for cuts, the past has already shown that these do & will continue to occur whenever there are financial crisis' occuring, BUT, the corruption still goes on, so as always it become a "chicken or egg" situation & we as ordinary folk will never be able to change that.
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Message 1137881 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 3:31:42 UTC - in response to Message 1137874.

One is not born with morals or principals, they are achieved via education.


Not true. I know plenty of educated people that are immoral or amoral.

As for continuing analysing so it can be better dealt with? In that case, it seems that all the analysing already done has failed miserably!


Then we have two choices: Try harder to solve the problems or continue to fail miserably.

As for the April 81 riots in Brixton, our squadron actually drove through there on our return from exercises & the best thing I had seen was the rioters vacate the road to let us pass - I wonder why? Considering we were armed soldiers maybe?


Because their rioting is their attempt at sending a message; them dying is not sending a message - at least those with a message. Those only looking to loot and capitalize off the rioting will net no gain if they are injured or caught. Again, I don't agree with their methods, but I can see why they seem to feel pushed into a corner.

The problem here is that there are or will be too many committees/quangos with bleeding heart liberals discussing the hows & whys rather than debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurences & attempting to force the authorities to act accordingly.


Isn't debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurrences exactly the same thing as what you just said the "bleeding heart liberals" are trying to do?

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Message 1137892 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 4:01:27 UTC - in response to Message 1137881.

1: Yes true as its then down to the individual making that choice & in doing so, MUST know that they are going against the laws of society.

2: Totally agree, but again, we can't make that happen & should we try, we get labelled a dissenter, so where will it end?

3: Oh very true. Had they attempted to attack our vehicles or us, most of the lads would've delighted in joining in as that was what was in our minds & as we did not have ANY officers with us...what made us NOT DO SO? That is easily answered - A) Education B) Training C) Discipline D) Morals

4: No, they are not trying to rationalise or attempt to get to the route of the problem, they are only in it for the money & the kudos of being in that position as history has already proven that.

Until we get genuine people into positions that do want to serve the community & make life better for all, rather than just for the gold plated salaries they can achieve, then the gap between the haves & have nots will only increase.

Take a look at your own politicians actions over the last week or so....Are they really acting in the best interests of the USA? From what's been seen this side of the pond, all that can be seen are politicians arguing amonst themselves like little schoolboys, just like our own parliament & I'd guess the rest of the world as well.
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Message 1137904 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 4:53:08 UTC

Heard on the radio driving home, a looter saying he was taking back his taxes in stealing and wasn't ashamed to do it.

I'd say there has been a colossal failure to educate. Perhaps they know the 3 r's but they are devoid of any moral education.
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Message 1137907 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:02:20 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 5:29:23 UTC

The trigger event was like racial tension situation in UK. Many african british women were accusing the police. Then one day later riots began now 3 days later it turned into mass looting.

In many situations watching two different news sources actually gives you more realistic perspective. So I watch either western news sources and russia today source which each actually reveal others censored sides.

Maybe this is one sided report or fair report but interesting interviews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XnvNOR5EU
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Message 1137916 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:15:50 UTC

I see that many are believing that its a lack of education....sorry but that is wrong. There are brilliant teachers in our schools & how they manage to succeed with both hands tied behind their backs amazes me.

It's not an education problem but an authority problem. How can either police or teachers deal with Pupils/Hooligans that laugh in their face when they know that the courts either won't do anything or hand out trivial sentences?

THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
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Message 1137933 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:40:41 UTC - in response to Message 1137916.

One can not rule by fear long term.

They were taught that there is no reason to be moral. They learned that before they set foot in a classroom. The failure to educate was their parents weren't taught how to raise a child. If the child is bright a school teacher may be able to turn their thinking around to be moral, if the parents don't undermine that. But only if there is an obvious better life to be gained by being moral and a significant chance that abetter life is a real possibility.

We have lost two generations and likely three.

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Message 1137940 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:56:08 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 6:38:43 UTC

Rule by fear? Where did that come from? For a society to exist in a civilised rather than a barbaric manner, there must be laws.

Parents weren't taught on how to raise a child? I think you will find that many parents weren't taught that, & many of those parents raised decent law abiding citizens.

However, if you're saying that authorities must take the initiative in providing all aspects of life for every individual, that'll lead to a total nanny & also total police state...do we want that?
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Message 1137945 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 6:03:57 UTC

Another point to consider as some are calling for troops to patrol the streets.

What troops? Our forces are being decimated & currently our armed forces are fighting on 3 fronts, Libya,Iraq & Afghanistan.

Northern Ireland has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that using troops as police does not work & to see it here on the UK mainland will be an admission of defeat & therefore the anachists will have won.

No, the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation is to declare Martial Law, that gives the army a hell of a lot of leeway.
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Message 1137954 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 6:52:57 UTC

Why are seven year olds allowed in the streets after 6/7 PM?
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Message 1137969 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 8:07:09 UTC - in response to Message 1137954.

Why are seven year olds allowed in the streets after 6/7 PM?



Good question! Throughout the 60's & up to approx 1972, any police officer finding kids out on the street after 8pm, were tagged by them (either by grabbing their ear or sideburns, if any) & taken to their home (many of the good local beat police officers knew ALL the kids on their beat).

If the kids were under 11 years old, the officers used to give the parents a tongue-lashing & after the officers left, the kids often got a clout from their parents. We didn't do it a second time!

Due to so called Political Correctness, the police can no longer do this as well as the parents not being allowed to smack their kids.

Personally, I think all this PC B/S needs to die a quick death!
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Message 1137972 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 8:12:27 UTC - in response to Message 1137945.
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 8:14:08 UTC


... the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation ...

That is looking increasingly the case. The Home Secretary, Theresa May, is meeting with the police this morning to "discuss leasons learnt" to see if different methods should be used to stop the rioting and to identify/apprehend the perpetrators. She didn't seem to want to talk about troop involvement or even having the Defence dept at the meeting. She also ruled out use of water canon in mainland UK and didn't want to say if she was considering a curfew.

If they havn't learned the lessons by now and not willing to consider the things that could bring the riots to an end, then "the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation" should be seriously looked at, but by who?
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Message 1137980 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 9:42:11 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 9:47:55 UTC

The event fueling is surprisingly similar to ones in middle east that Facebook and twitter were becoming active medium for this loot anarchy in london.

watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXcI-NL3Tro
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Message 1137989 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 10:20:28 UTC

PM Cameron has just said that last night there were 6000 police on the streets of London, tonight there will be 16,000. Police reinforcements being called in from all over the country. Parliament is being recalled for Thursday. No mention of troops, water cannon, or curfews being used. He said that sufficient and robust policing is what will be used.

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