UK Riots

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Message 1137874 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 3:18:24 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 3:18:43 UTC

One is not born with morals or principals, they are achieved via education.

As for continuing analysing so it can be better dealt with? In that case, it seems that all the analysing already done has failed miserably!

Brixton April 1981 & September 1985, Toxteth July 1981, Tottenham October 1985, these were not pleasant to witness or see on one's tv, but they have similar reasons as this weeks riots, so it looks like society hasn't learnt its lessons well.

As for the April 81 riots in Brixton, our squadron actually drove through there on our return from exercises & the best thing I had seen was the rioters vacate the road to let us pass - I wonder why? Considering we were armed soldiers maybe?

Unfortunately, in this case I agree with the politicians here - no troops! I don't wish to see the mainland turn into another Northern Ireland fiasco.

The problem here is that there are or will be too many committees/quangos with bleeding heart liberals discussing the hows & whys rather than debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurences & attempting to force the authorities to act accordingly.

As for cuts, the past has already shown that these do & will continue to occur whenever there are financial crisis' occuring, BUT, the corruption still goes on, so as always it become a "chicken or egg" situation & we as ordinary folk will never be able to change that.
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Message 1137881 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 3:31:42 UTC - in response to Message 1137874.  

One is not born with morals or principals, they are achieved via education.


Not true. I know plenty of educated people that are immoral or amoral.

As for continuing analysing so it can be better dealt with? In that case, it seems that all the analysing already done has failed miserably!


Then we have two choices: Try harder to solve the problems or continue to fail miserably.

As for the April 81 riots in Brixton, our squadron actually drove through there on our return from exercises & the best thing I had seen was the rioters vacate the road to let us pass - I wonder why? Considering we were armed soldiers maybe?


Because their rioting is their attempt at sending a message; them dying is not sending a message - at least those with a message. Those only looking to loot and capitalize off the rioting will net no gain if they are injured or caught. Again, I don't agree with their methods, but I can see why they seem to feel pushed into a corner.

The problem here is that there are or will be too many committees/quangos with bleeding heart liberals discussing the hows & whys rather than debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurences & attempting to force the authorities to act accordingly.


Isn't debating the fundamental reasons behind these occurrences exactly the same thing as what you just said the "bleeding heart liberals" are trying to do?
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Message 1137892 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 4:01:27 UTC - in response to Message 1137881.  

1: Yes true as its then down to the individual making that choice & in doing so, MUST know that they are going against the laws of society.

2: Totally agree, but again, we can't make that happen & should we try, we get labelled a dissenter, so where will it end?

3: Oh very true. Had they attempted to attack our vehicles or us, most of the lads would've delighted in joining in as that was what was in our minds & as we did not have ANY officers with us...what made us NOT DO SO? That is easily answered - A) Education B) Training C) Discipline D) Morals

4: No, they are not trying to rationalise or attempt to get to the route of the problem, they are only in it for the money & the kudos of being in that position as history has already proven that.

Until we get genuine people into positions that do want to serve the community & make life better for all, rather than just for the gold plated salaries they can achieve, then the gap between the haves & have nots will only increase.

Take a look at your own politicians actions over the last week or so....Are they really acting in the best interests of the USA? From what's been seen this side of the pond, all that can be seen are politicians arguing amonst themselves like little schoolboys, just like our own parliament & I'd guess the rest of the world as well.
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Message 1137904 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 4:53:08 UTC

Heard on the radio driving home, a looter saying he was taking back his taxes in stealing and wasn't ashamed to do it.

I'd say there has been a colossal failure to educate. Perhaps they know the 3 r's but they are devoid of any moral education.
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Message 1137907 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:02:20 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 5:29:23 UTC

The trigger event was like racial tension situation in UK. Many african british women were accusing the police. Then one day later riots began now 3 days later it turned into mass looting.

In many situations watching two different news sources actually gives you more realistic perspective. So I watch either western news sources and russia today source which each actually reveal others censored sides.

Maybe this is one sided report or fair report but interesting interviews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XnvNOR5EU
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Message 1137916 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:15:50 UTC

I see that many are believing that its a lack of education....sorry but that is wrong. There are brilliant teachers in our schools & how they manage to succeed with both hands tied behind their backs amazes me.

It's not an education problem but an authority problem. How can either police or teachers deal with Pupils/Hooligans that laugh in their face when they know that the courts either won't do anything or hand out trivial sentences?

THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
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Message 1137933 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:40:41 UTC - in response to Message 1137916.  

One can not rule by fear long term.

They were taught that there is no reason to be moral. They learned that before they set foot in a classroom. The failure to educate was their parents weren't taught how to raise a child. If the child is bright a school teacher may be able to turn their thinking around to be moral, if the parents don't undermine that. But only if there is an obvious better life to be gained by being moral and a significant chance that abetter life is a real possibility.

We have lost two generations and likely three.

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Message 1137940 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 5:56:08 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 6:38:43 UTC

Rule by fear? Where did that come from? For a society to exist in a civilised rather than a barbaric manner, there must be laws.

Parents weren't taught on how to raise a child? I think you will find that many parents weren't taught that, & many of those parents raised decent law abiding citizens.

However, if you're saying that authorities must take the initiative in providing all aspects of life for every individual, that'll lead to a total nanny & also total police state...do we want that?
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Message 1137945 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 6:03:57 UTC

Another point to consider as some are calling for troops to patrol the streets.

What troops? Our forces are being decimated & currently our armed forces are fighting on 3 fronts, Libya,Iraq & Afghanistan.

Northern Ireland has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that using troops as police does not work & to see it here on the UK mainland will be an admission of defeat & therefore the anachists will have won.

No, the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation is to declare Martial Law, that gives the army a hell of a lot of leeway.
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Message 1137954 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 6:52:57 UTC

Why are seven year olds allowed in the streets after 6/7 PM?
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Message 1137969 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 8:07:09 UTC - in response to Message 1137954.  

Why are seven year olds allowed in the streets after 6/7 PM?



Good question! Throughout the 60's & up to approx 1972, any police officer finding kids out on the street after 8pm, were tagged by them (either by grabbing their ear or sideburns, if any) & taken to their home (many of the good local beat police officers knew ALL the kids on their beat).

If the kids were under 11 years old, the officers used to give the parents a tongue-lashing & after the officers left, the kids often got a clout from their parents. We didn't do it a second time!

Due to so called Political Correctness, the police can no longer do this as well as the parents not being allowed to smack their kids.

Personally, I think all this PC B/S needs to die a quick death!
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Message 1137972 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 8:12:27 UTC - in response to Message 1137945.  
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 8:14:08 UTC


... the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation ...

That is looking increasingly the case. The Home Secretary, Theresa May, is meeting with the police this morning to "discuss leasons learnt" to see if different methods should be used to stop the rioting and to identify/apprehend the perpetrators. She didn't seem to want to talk about troop involvement or even having the Defence dept at the meeting. She also ruled out use of water canon in mainland UK and didn't want to say if she was considering a curfew.

If they havn't learned the lessons by now and not willing to consider the things that could bring the riots to an end, then "the best way forward if the politicians & the police cannot handle the situation" should be seriously looked at, but by who?

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Message 1137980 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 9:42:11 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2011, 9:47:55 UTC

The event fueling is surprisingly similar to ones in middle east that Facebook and twitter were becoming active medium for this loot anarchy in london.

watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXcI-NL3Tro
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Message 1137990 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 10:28:00 UTC - in response to Message 1137989.  

PM Cameron has just said that last night there were 6000 police on the streets of London, tonight there will be 16,000. Police reinforcements being called in from all over the country. Parliament is being recalled for Thursday. No mention of troops, water cannon, or curfews being used. He said that sufficient and robust policing is what will be used.


That may be true for now, but unfortunately, it won't be long before the regular use of guns will come into play & then I'm afraid the police will be useless.
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Message 1138001 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 12:02:52 UTC

Prime Minister's Comments

There's a statement from our Prime Minister, that is going to come back & haunt him & also bite his ass...... its 8 paragraphs down.

"Much, Much more police are needed" REALLY? You think so PM? What bloody planet are you living on?

Successive governments, including yours have been cutting back on police numbers for years... talking about calling the kettle black..........
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Message 1138015 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 12:50:23 UTC - in response to Message 1138014.  

While police officers had shown great bravery in dealing with the violence, "it is quite clear that we need more, much more, police on our streets and we need even more robust police action".


I think he meant to sort out the immediate problem, not as a normal day to day activity in future. Depends upon how you read between the lines.



In other words, just your normal everyday political soundbite...
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Message 1138058 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 21:50:29 UTC

We have created a society of looters guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 9 August 2011 21.00 BST

"Haven't the warnings been there, from as wide a range of people from Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett to Rowan Williams? We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means. A society of looters created with MPs and their expenses, bankers and their bonuses, tax-evading corporations, hacking journalists, bribe-taking police officers, and now a group of alienated kids are seizing their chance. This is not to condone but to understand. Addressing inequality is the only way we can avoid a rerun of these riots.

John McDonnell MP

Labour, Hayes and Harlington

• If this government implements bigoted policies of social exclusion – deliberate creation of unemployment, ending of education maintenance allowance, dumping of Sure Start, attacks on social housing tenancies et al – then a small but violent minority of those excluded may turn to other ways of being noticed. And the huge police cuts mean that the riots are even more difficult to deal with.

Gerald Kaufman MP

Labour, Manchester Gorton"
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Message 1138088 - Posted: 9 Aug 2011, 22:32:27 UTC - in response to Message 1138058.  

We have created a society of looters guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 9 August 2011 21.00 BST

"Haven't the warnings been there, from as wide a range of people from Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett to Rowan Williams? We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means. A society of looters created with MPs and their expenses, bankers and their bonuses, tax-evading corporations, hacking journalists, bribe-taking police officers, and now a group of alienated kids are seizing their chance. This is not to condone but to understand. Addressing inequality is the only way we can avoid a rerun of these riots.

John McDonnell MP


Society has always been "grotesquely unequal" but did not affect me during my childhood so why should this have been the reason for this outburst today?
John McDonnell's words to me seem typical of that sprouted by many-many socialists now and years past. So how does John McDonnell propose to address this 'inequality' issue that he's so concerned about. I suspect he will do it in the usual way and pretend to be concerned, say he is concerned, so please vote for me and I will fight the cause. What will actually happen, nothing for to have equality means all are equal and "NO" politicians wants the ordinary public to be equal to them.....but of course you already knew that didn't you. Who do politicians see as equal to them? business men and the money men all those that the politicians love to mix with. So if the ordinary public are not going to have equality with the politicians then the public wont have equality with the business fraternity either. So where does that put us now? exactly where we have always been. So for us normally balanced humans this is not a problem and has never been a problem and hence not an excuse for others to commit anarchy.
So to John McDonnell's words I summarise as just the typical sort of political rhetoric one gets so used to coming from politicians.
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Message 1138165 - Posted: 10 Aug 2011, 1:03:03 UTC - in response to Message 1137993.  

It might help if Twitter was voluntarily taken off line for 72 hours, that could take the edge off it.


I'm amazed---an attorney recommending censorship (at least I think you're an attorney Chris-if I'm wrong I apologize).


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Message 1138180 - Posted: 10 Aug 2011, 2:05:11 UTC

Chris is not an Attorney Blurf.
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