UK Riots

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Profile Es99
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Message 1138985 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:12:02 UTC - in response to Message 1138957.  
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 20:12:28 UTC

PM Cameron said in a statement to Parliament today, that he has instructed the Home Secretary to look into the opertaion and possible curbing of social networking sites.

Sorry Blurf, when criminality is involved, it has got naff all to do with censorship.

Be very careful what you wish for. The UK is already well under way towards becoming a police state with the government having far too many powers to curtail the freedoms of it's subjects.

If you have any sense you would fight tooth and nail against any such proposition.
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Message 1138986 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:19:35 UTC - in response to Message 1138983.  
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 20:25:11 UTC

Absolutely not! In fact, those very messages can be helpful for study of the situation and the people involved. But in no way should a technology or a company that provides a technology should ever be held responsible for the way people use it.


Well if that is your considered view, then I am very sorry to hear it. And I can assure you that you are totally out of touch with the current view of the UK parliament and the government of the United Kingdom.


I pride myself in being out of touch in what governments and parliaments (or in our case congress) wants when it comes to making people responsible for things they should not be made responsible for.

[Edit] I mean, where does it end? A person speeding in a motorized vehicle crashes and kills someone, should the company that manufactured the vehicle be made responsible for creating or utilizing an engine that can go over the posted speed limit? Should Sony, OptiArc, Pioneer, etc. be held responsible for people illegally making Blu-Ray discs to sell and distribute? Should a tree cutting company be made responsible for someone getting an infectious paper cut and having to spend a week in the hospital? The answer to all of that is a resounding "NO!". It's preposterous to even suggest it.

I'm only sorry that people still carry metaphorical pitchforks and look forward to public floggings in this day and age when we should be leaving such barbaric instincts behind.
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Message 1138992 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:36:25 UTC

@ ES99 - I hope therefore that you are happier living in Canada rather than here.

@ Ozzfan - I also hope that you are happy living the the USA.

As for me, I am aghast at what has happened in recent days, but I will agree to disagree with you upon your views. You sort out your problems your way, and we'll sort out our problems our way.

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Message 1138993 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:45:44 UTC - in response to Message 1138992.  
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 20:53:16 UTC

Well that seems rather anti-climatic. Part of the reason for the exchange of ideas is to allow the best ideas to survive. Simply giving flippant responses like what is found in your last post do not seem to fit into that idea, nor does it allow different views to exist. You're essentially saying, "This is what we plan on doing about it, and if you don't like it, tough!", which is no way any government should be run, or its citizens should encourage it to be. Governments are supposed to be the will of the people, and the will of the people can change for better or worse depending on the free exchange of ideas.

[Edit]
As for me, I am aghast at what has happened in recent days,


I was very young when the Rodney King beating happened in L.A., but I remember it being a major source of contention. And when the police officers weren't held responsible for their actions, thousands, if not more, rioted angrily. Of course, I've always lived in IL so I was always perfectly safe from harm.

Or was I?

I may have been safe from rioting and pillaging, but I've seen things and had things done to me personally that would make most people cringe in disgust. Yet I wish no vengeance, malice, or ill-will toward those who have wronged me or that I have seen wrong others. I do not think our experiences should be allowed to overwhelm our sense of morality and compassion for our fellow man to have such barbaric thoughts and lust for the blood of wrongdoers everywhere.
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Message 1139027 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 22:00:48 UTC

Chris, if England goes ahead with this, do not be surprised if England is placed on a list of repressive countries with which the USA will not do business.

I understand your anger and fear. I lived through two major civil riots. The rioters think they are playing a game. You have to make them realize it isn't a game. A delayed punishment isn't going to get their attention.

As to twitter and SMS, better to have them on. Then the logs will convict the instigators.


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Message 1139032 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 22:03:56 UTC
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 22:07:14 UTC

None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

None of you had to put out a fire in bins behind my flats because the fire brigade was too busy trying to put out numerous fires in Croydon. I did.

None of you could feel the same sadness and anger watching the images of MY TOWN looted and burning. The next morning I had tears in my eyes watching the pictures on TV

I believe that at the moment a large percent of the law abiding public in UK cities would allow the government to bring in ANY measures it deemed necessary to stop these riots and any measures to bring the perpetrators to justice.

I am not saying I agree, but I was there and my gut wants retribution whilst my head is trying to work out how we have come to this. Being there and seeing and hearing what was happening has left me torn, unable to concentrate at work, but somehow wanting to help but not knowing where to start,

To say that Blackberry Messenger is more important than lives and livelihoods will not go down well in many British cities at the moment.

Time is a healer and hopefully the UK will be able to work the problems out. Right now the people who caused this need to know we will not sit by and watch them destroy our communities.

This is NOT the USA this is the UK. The USA is not blameless where civil rights are concerned do not judge us in our anger.
"Proud to be born and bred in Croydon"
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Message 1139043 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 22:13:12 UTC

Who was it that said........"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time".............

As for shutting down social networking sites, personally I don't think that it will be that effective. On 7/7, I was driving towards my last drop of the day at the Express Depot in Hunter Street when the 30 bus blew up. As soon as it became known that bombs were going off in London, my employers & family tried to contact me with no success - ALL mobile phone facilities were shut down.

This combined with SN shutdown may have an effect. It's been said that the innocent would suffer. Really? What did they do before technology? There was the telephone & letter writing. Technology has only made it easier & faster to get in touch. And that's a problem in itself as even the majority of decent people would be upset at having that access denied.

Anyone ever heard of Radio Transmissions? For example, CB, Walkie Talkies. Regardless of the who,where,why,When,what & how, where's there's a will, there's a way.
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Message 1139050 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 22:24:57 UTC
Last modified: 11 Aug 2011, 22:25:15 UTC

Bernie, get over to TLPTPW...we're all having drinkies...might be a guinness
going too, Sirius..
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Message 1139090 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 23:14:47 UTC - in response to Message 1139050.  

Bernie, get over to TLPTPW...we're all having drinkies...might be a guinness
going too, Sirius..

Somehow I no longer feel like "joining in". The community in my area is "sick" and having a good job earning a good wage and savings makes me one of the "rich". Can't see the SETI boards in the same light any more.

Sorry.
"Proud to be born and bred in Croydon"
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Message 1139103 - Posted: 11 Aug 2011, 23:53:25 UTC - in response to Message 1139090.  

Bernie, get over to TLPTPW...we're all having drinkies...might be a guinness
going too, Sirius..

Somehow I no longer feel like "joining in". The community in my area is "sick" and having a good job earning a good wage and savings makes me one of the "rich". Can't see the SETI boards in the same light any more.

Sorry.


I'm not surprised that you feel like this Bernie. What you experienced
was enough to shock anyone. The P.M has already muted that he's not
going to be happy if "The human rights act" comes to the rescue of these louts.
I read between the lines here, could be then end of this act as we know it
in this country. It's about time this act was thrown out and a more pragmatic
act formed for the benefit of the whole of the UK.
I find it incomprehensible how ignorant these louts are to the realities of life.
Back to basic would be an understatement here but parents are going to
have to be given back to them the powers over their children that were
exercised over me by my parents during the 50's and 60's. Got into trouble
like this and my father would have hung me up by my feet from the outside guttering..but I would
have had my ass kicked black and blue first. Just the thought of getting a whack
of my father was enough to keep me mindful of showing respect to the community
when out on the streets. I don't think any of us kids around my way got much if
any of corpral punishment off their fathers. But it was the knowledge that
it was there and available to be used is what kept us alert to what we were doing.
Did me no harm and I instinctively knew not to bring trouble home,
and I did not.
The trouble was that some fathers used corporal punishment too far and that was a very bad thing.
Schools the same, plenty of cases of sadistic teachers but that occurred because of the lack of control exercised over these blighters by
the educational authorities during those times.
Yet if a child is bought up properly, early in it's life, then there should not
have to be many cases where parents need to smack them.
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Message 1139108 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 0:03:29 UTC - in response to Message 1139090.  

Bernie, get over to TLPTPW...we're all having drinkies...might be a guinness
going too, Sirius..

Somehow I no longer feel like "joining in". The community in my area is "sick" and having a good job earning a good wage and savings makes me one of the "rich". Can't see the SETI boards in the same light any more.

Sorry.


I have experienced the same many times.. some do not seem to understand that the wealthy controlling things are not the person who works hard, manages to accumulate a few things, and serves an active roll in society. It is not your corner baker, it is not the liquor store on the corner, it is not the corner grocery store that have wealth. And looting your neighbor is counter productive.

The outrage I understand. The senseless taking from someone else who suffers much the same as the have nots I do not.

Ultimately it polutes any "cause" that might have been there to begin with.
It is selfishness, just as much as the investment banker who pushes you into buying their garbage for hundreds of times its worth.



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Message 1139120 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 0:25:32 UTC - in response to Message 1139032.  

None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

Yes, I did. And I knew they had firearms. You didn't face that.

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Message 1139135 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:01:05 UTC - in response to Message 1139027.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 1:02:31 UTC

Chris, if England goes ahead with this, do not be surprised if England is placed on a list of repressive countries with which the USA will not do business.

I understand your anger and fear. I lived through two major civil riots. The rioters think they are playing a game. You have to make them realize it isn't a game. A delayed punishment isn't going to get their attention.

As to twitter and SMS, better to have them on. Then the logs will convict the instigators.



Good point Gary, but from what I heard listening to Fox news the other evening
the USA has got it's own problems similar to ours. Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late? Still, the USA
has got too many financial problems to wont to make things worse by cutting us
off as an export market of theirs. We may be thinking of carrying out
suppressive actions to combat techno-controlled gangs but remember when it comes
to suppressing criminal activities.."we don't suppress them to the point of execution like you
do in the USA" Would this not be a good enough reason
for the UK not to do business with the USA? This is not a dig at you Gary for
what you do is your business and what we do is ours as long as no one goes too silly?
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Message 1139140 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:06:16 UTC - in response to Message 1139135.  

Do not expect the USA to "arm the rebels". First off, it was not non-violent demonstrations. And no one came in and mowed anyone down with automatic weapon fire.

As far as our executing mass murderers, I am a bit less than sympathetic, but I believe to be fair it should also apply to those who commit genocide via corporate dictate. We have some work to do on that front yet.

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Message 1139148 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:15:31 UTC

The debate on this thread is exactly the same as the authorities...every one expresssing an opinion, the difference being is we cannot do much about it, whereas they can...but fail every time.

Similar to what Bernie did, a 68 year old did in Ealing, unfortunately, he has died in hospital. As far as the authorities are concerned...they'll just announce their condolences & mark him him as just another statistic.

The problem here in the UK is that the beaurocracy is too top heavy & for people to get issues resolved is an absolute nightmare.

UK become a repressive country...that is an interesting comment. so in about 10 years or so, we can expect the US to invade & free the people if that happens?

I don't think so, we have no plentitude of OIL!
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Message 1139158 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:35:29 UTC - in response to Message 1139148.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 1:37:57 UTC

The problem here in the UK is that the beaurocracy is too top heavy & for people to get issues resolved is an absolute nightmare.



The problem here Sirius is that there are to many people with their
fingers in the decision pie's, organisation, institutions who really
should not have their fingers in-in the first place. Once you treat
criminals in a too civilised a'way you then end up giving them an
advantage over the civilised. I wonder how much the Court of Human Rights
has worked to the criminals favour in a way that it should not have done.

Any drink left?...I fancy going back to the bar for another 'arf...
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Message 1139160 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:38:19 UTC - in response to Message 1139120.  

None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

Yes, I did. And I knew they had firearms. You didn't face that.

How do you know that? Remember a guy was shot an killed in Croydon during the riot. Four black males breaking into a store were very likely to be carrying. But you are correct I did not consider that possibility at the time.


"Proud to be born and bred in Croydon"
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Message 1139161 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:38:29 UTC
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 1:41:37 UTC

I guess as usual americans and british are just sliding into typical cultural clashes rather than thoughtful debates.

It is the british members who actually feel and taste the reality of this event. For outsiders we can offer only best guessing solutions of this riot or some mini civil war.
Mandtugai!
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Message 1139163 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:49:57 UTC - in response to Message 1139135.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 1:56:19 UTC

Good point Gary, but from what I heard listening to Fox news the other evening
the USA has got it's own problems similar to ours.

Yes we have riots. Yes we have criminal gangs/thugs. Yes we have horrible unemployment.

Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late?

Not bloody likely. The pressure here is incredible to get the story out. If the press hears about something it will be published here and there are too dang many people with cell phone cameras to ever think any big story is going to be suppressed at all. Faux however needs sensationalism to sell more advertising.

Still, the USA
has got too many financial problems to wont to make things worse by cutting us
off as an export market of theirs. We may be thinking of carrying out
suppressive actions to combat techno-controlled gangs but remember when it comes
to suppressing criminal activities.."we don't suppress them to the point of execution like you
do in the USA" Would this not be a good enough reason
for the UK not to do business with the USA? This is not a dig at you Gary for
what you do is your business and what we do is ours as long as no one goes too silly?

Not taken as a dig. What I am telling you it is far to easy to come up with a scape goat of a inanimate object and far to hard to admit you (government policies) are the one at fault.

When the Rodney King riot happened cell phones were not ubiquitous and the size of a suitcase. However the gangs were still able to target specific people and businesses for destruction. It isn't the technology that is at fault. It is the conditions that lead to the gangs that is a fault. High unemployment, absentee parents and a huge profit margin on drugs. Crime is more profitable than a job. That is the root cause.

We haven't addressed this in the USA. I don't think we have the political will to do so or even the intelligence in the political arena to see that it is the root cause of the problem. There are far too many people whose minds are hermetically sealed.

California is in a unique position on this now. It has been ordered to turn out around half the people who are presently in prison. Why? Because California doesn't have the money to build enough prison cells to house all the people its laws make criminals out of. Time to rethink how long sentences should be and what should be a crime.

My comment about delayed punishment is important. While the riot is ongoing the important thing is to stop it immediately. The real threat of dead bodies on the street will do that. I just don't think "we will catch you later" has that same effect as a rioter isn't thinking rationally to begin with.

[edit]Perhaps my 20 years of hindsight on this isn't what you want to hear right now.
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Message 1139164 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 1:52:41 UTC - in response to Message 1139160.  

None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

Yes, I did. And I knew they had firearms. You didn't face that.

How do you know that? Remember a guy was shot an killed in Croydon during the riot. Four black males breaking into a store were very likely to be carrying. But you are correct I did not consider that possibility at the time.

You are right I don't know that. All I know is firearms are much less likely to be available in England. Where as in California firearms are near certain in gang crime.
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