UK Riots


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Profile Chris S
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Message 1142597 - Posted: 19 Aug 2011, 14:32:11 UTC

Further to my last post, here is the first one of many. Although in this particular case it has to be said that a custodial sentence was probably wrong in the first place, never mind the length of it. The offence was the handling of known stolen goods, which was unfortuately exacerbated by their source.

appeal granted

Profile Chris S
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Message 1142695 - Posted: 19 Aug 2011, 18:57:41 UTC

I think the main interest in this thread is now waning, but I will post just one more news item about it. I think it will be some considerable time before we see all the ramifications of 2 weeks ago. But certainly it is turning into a defining point in UK recent history.

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Message 1142955 - Posted: 20 Aug 2011, 4:09:30 UTC

Chris, I'm just Glad the Folks I Know over there are Safe.
Please continue with a few Updates.
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Message 1143068 - Posted: 20 Aug 2011, 14:59:34 UTC

I have no faith whatsoever in this country's justice system when I see that rioters are getting 4 years for incitement using Facebook when B******'s like this walks away free..........


Yob grins at assault on 4 year old

..he should have been remanded in custody until the date of the trial.
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Message 1143232 - Posted: 20 Aug 2011, 23:20:26 UTC
Last modified: 20 Aug 2011, 23:21:03 UTC

Thanks heavens there's Private Eye to put things into perspective:

PrivateEye wrote:
"Youths armed with glass bottles, bricks and stones turned a high street into a warzone," reported the Tottenham and Wood Green Journal - not this month, but back in March.

Riot police took until 5 am to restore order as around 200 youths aged between 14 and 20 rampaged along Hornsey High Street. Police vehicles were damaged, people were arrested for violent disorder and one bar was stripped of its licence after the incident. Police Sergeant Michael Tisi told the local paper that even after he ws joined by several marked units: "I felt it was not safe for officers to intervene as we were massively outnumbered."

Oddly enough this incident wasn't even covered by London's Evening Standard; and it completely failed to spark copycat violence and moral panic across the country. Could this possibly be because the riot kicked off on 12 March while rolling TV news and social media were otherwise engaged following the Japanese earthquake and unfolding nuclear crisis?


For all those wishing to blame Twitter, Blackberry's, and all those other tech things the yoof use, the answer is much simpler: TV, ban that and you'll end riots spreading from one part of the country to another.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile Chris S
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Message 1143407 - Posted: 21 Aug 2011, 9:04:08 UTC

For all those wishing to blame Twitter, Blackberry's, and all those other tech things the yoof use, the answer is much simpler: TV, ban that and you'll end riots spreading from one part of the country to another.


TV and radio are information services, not two way communication services. You can't use the TV or a radio to get hold of all your mates and say lets loot XYZ high street at 10pm, you can on social networking sites and the Blackberry network, and to a lesser extent with fixed line and mobile telephones.

You could argue that by informing people of riots, it might encourage them to join in, but it wouldn't help to organise them, which is what was clearly happening, when groups of people turned up in a co-ordinated manner rather than just randomly.

Private Eye is a satirical magazine, I doubt whether too much serious notice of their views will be taken.

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Message 1143474 - Posted: 21 Aug 2011, 15:41:00 UTC

A slight kiss for the convicted from the cat-o-nine-tails (+ lead tipped tails) would be spectacular. No reduction of sentence possible.
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Message 1143776 - Posted: 22 Aug 2011, 10:42:00 UTC

Twitter, Facebook and Blackberry called to Home Office to discuss role in riots

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2011/08/19/247676/Twitter-Facebook-and-Blackberry-called-to-Home-Office-to-discuss-role-in.htm

Twitter, Facebook and Blackberry have been called to the Home Office next week to discuss the role of social media in the recent riots.

So far only Facebook has confirmed its attendance, although Blackberry has suggested it will also be there, reports the BBC.

The announcement follows prime minister David Cameron's speech in the House of Commons that the government will crack down on rioters using social networks to communicate.

"Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality," David Cameron said.

Blackberry has already announced it will co-operate with police after it was revealed rioters used the company's messaging service to co-ordinate attacks.

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Message 1144377 - Posted: 23 Aug 2011, 23:27:56 UTC - in response to Message 1143407.
Last modified: 23 Aug 2011, 23:44:24 UTC

Private Eye is a satirical magazine, I doubt whether too much serious notice of their views will be taken.


Sad though I suspect your assessment is correct.

Another article from the same edition (No 1295):

PrivateEye wrote:
JOINED-UP GOVERNMENT

October 2010: Foreign office minister Jeremy Browne meets Facebook executives and asserts government's commitment to ensuring free access to social media under repressive regimes. "The right to freedom of expression is one of our most cherished values in the United Kingdom. However, this is not the case in large parts of the world. The rise of social media websites, such as Facebook, and the censorship they face has highlighted the complexities involved in freedom of expression on the internet. I am now working on how best to ensure that people throughout the world can benefit from access to free information and knowledge on the internet."

August 2011: David Cameron announces that "Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck by how they were organised via social media. Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can be used for ill. And when people are using social media for violence we need to stop them. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites when we know they are planning violence, disorder and criminality. I have also asked the police if they need any new powers."


Bad when other nations impose restrictions on one of the UK's most cherished values. Fine if it wants to do so itself. Does any one in the UK government know how to spell hypocrisy? What use is a "right" if the government can legislate it away?

Given that many appear to be convinced that technology plays a major role in riots I guess it's only a matter of time before we see Blair Peach's last tweet.
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Profile Chris S
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Message 1147902 - Posted: 1 Sep 2011, 13:21:58 UTC

cases top 1500

Profile John Clark
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Message 1147985 - Posted: 1 Sep 2011, 18:34:02 UTC
Last modified: 1 Sep 2011, 18:34:27 UTC

I wonder when we can get news of the first of the conviced rioters to be birched?
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Profile Chris S
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Message 1148184 - Posted: 2 Sep 2011, 11:52:26 UTC
Last modified: 2 Sep 2011, 11:54:30 UTC

Capital punishment is frowned upon in the 21stC John, however effective a deterrent it might have been in years past. The abolition of Approved Schools, and Borstals was also a backward step in my opinion, but that is another matter.

However a glimmer of light emerges ......

Disruptive pupils who wreck the schooling of millions will be given an ‘unambiguous lesson in who’s boss’, the Education Secretary vowed yesterday.
In a new war on ill discipline in the classroom, Michael Gove will loosen rules on the use of physical force by teachers and increase penalties for parents who allow their children to play truant.

At Last

BBC comment

However none of it will work, unlesss ..

(1) Unscrupulous lawyers, on no fee no win, are stopped from bringing frivolous caes to court.

(2) Get rich quick parents in the compsensation culture, are stopped from bringing cases to court for alleged assault, after a teacher has chucked their unruly kid out of class.

(3) Namby Pamby Court Judges, have the guts to throw out these cases, or are forced to do so by the Lord Chief Justice.

It's welcome start, but only a small one.... The Loonly Labour Left ran our countries Education for a decade, now we are having to pick op the pieces.

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Message 1148236 - Posted: 2 Sep 2011, 15:05:17 UTC

Hi Chris

Although some perps may deserve it I was advocating a painful form of corporal punishment, not capital punishment.

Off with their heads!!
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Message 1148265 - Posted: 2 Sep 2011, 16:59:51 UTC

Off with their heads? I'd start with the bankers.

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Message 1148282 - Posted: 2 Sep 2011, 18:06:29 UTC - in response to Message 1148265.

Off with their heads? I'd start with the bankers.


followed by, politicians, lawyers & civil servants
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Message 1148300 - Posted: 2 Sep 2011, 19:02:39 UTC
Last modified: 2 Sep 2011, 19:03:47 UTC

Well we don't advocate corporal punishment any more either!

Hev is quite right, the banking industry needs severe regulating, but too many people in positions of influence, have too mamny fingers in the pie. And probably it was always thus, although some chickens come home to roost. Fred the Shred received threats after he was disposed, and it has been recently reported that his wife has chucked him out their home.

MP's expenses have had the lid lifted on it, and will be kept a close eye on in future. Fat cat Civil Servants and fewer than they have ever been.

The only bugbear is Lawyers, or solicitors as we call them in the UK. Soliciting has a certain connotation with the oldest profession, and in both cases their clients get screwed! The big mistake was to change the law to let lawyers advertise in the UK, before that we never had all this no fee, no win malarkey.

Things are getting better, and if this coalition government can tackle feral parents with feral kids, then they'll get my support. But don't let this thread get into a Brit one, I want to hear what others abropad have to say as well.

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Message 1149094 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 5:43:30 UTC

oh jeez...single mums and civil servants bashed in one thread. Must be my lucky day.

Anyone who blames the single mums, the person who actually stayed behind and took responsibility for the child, is an idiot...and such nonsense as a women having foresight that the father is going to p*ss off and leave her to raise the kid, well clearly I'd love to know how one gets this foresight because I never saw it coming. I guess I'm just another lowlife.

Gotta love a country that throws parents in jail for what their kids do. I got threatened with jail repeatedly because my son wouldn't go to school. Do you know why he wouldn't go to school? Because at 12 years old he suffered a horrible attack that left him traumatised and he didn't want to leave the house. I'm sure putting me in jail would have helped the problem enormously. Yes, I was told I deserved to go to jail for not being able to get my child to go to school, however my priority at the time was getting him to a state where he wasn't suicidal.

So before we start throwing mums in jail or evicting them why don't we have a look at what is actually going on in their lives. Or is that too 'P.C.'??

If you think a good bout in the military will somehow fix things you might want to consider that 80% of homeless people in the US are ex-military. If the military is so good at sorting out people how do you explain that? I guess if they come back in a body bag they won't be a bother to you any more and you can stop trying to find real solutions to the problems rather than knee jerk ones that shift the blame onto an easy target.

For those at you who are bashing Civil Servants you might want to wonder who it is that helps protect the public from the worst the politicians can do. I was one for 5 years and a better bunch of people who took their duties very seriously you couldn't hope to meet. All of them were very aware that they worked for you and were spending your money. Be thankful that you have Civil Servants keeping an eye on the politicians.
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Message 1149113 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 7:48:26 UTC - in response to Message 1149094.
Last modified: 5 Sep 2011, 7:58:45 UTC

...but who keeps an eye on the civil servants?

Civil Servants steal £1bn from taxpayers
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Message 1149151 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 13:26:38 UTC

I'm beginning to wounder if we need to introduce community law. Where each community elects it's own elders to supervise and deal with various social problems arising within their adopted areas. If certain problems become unresolved
here so the problem then gets referred to the state system for them to resolve.
So lets take an example of troublesome teenagers, when they become a problem they get sent in front of the community elders. The elders dress them down regarding their unsocial behaviour and warn them of the repercussions if they come before them again regarding this same issue. In the event that someone re-offends and the elders refer them to the state system then at least the offender knows that it is the community who are sending them there. This would break the time aged traditional thoughts that if you break the law it's the state your offending against where in many cases it's actually individuals plus the community as a whole who are being offended against.

The above is food for thought with plenty of clarity needed of course?

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Message 1149162 - Posted: 5 Sep 2011, 14:15:12 UTC

Some will thing I’m crazy, what is not far far from reality, but after I finished university or college for our American members I had to serve in the armed forces for 18 months.
It got worse, because after my basic training I had to go to Bosnia, but now I can say that I’ve learned a lot a human being.
During basic training I meet a lot of thugs, teenagers without a future or any vision, and I can say that after the service they learned a trade that fit them, and now they both also have civic values, but also they are hard workers in the trade they learned there.
Conscription gave them the opportunities that they will not have if they stayed in their hood. They were already delinquents and they were going to became criminals.
Somehow service forces them to have the discipline and gave them civic values. Maybe is stupid, and non democratic, but in my opinion when there is this gap of values in society, the only organization capable of filling it with values, liked discipline, respecting and hierarchy, and even teaching a good trade is the armed forces.
Conscription was created to give civic values training to the common person, but it seems that the thugs, who made the riot, never had them.
I’m in favor of having conscription all over again, because yes, it was a pain in the behind, but at the end you would learn things and you would meet people that you would remember for life.

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