UK Riots

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Profile GalaxyIce
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Message 1140113 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 16:47:21 UTC - in response to Message 1140076.  

repay their victims.

Yes, I would agree with that.


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Message 1140127 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 17:48:29 UTC - in response to Message 1140113.  

And apply that rule to corporations for their corporate greed, after all, 'corporations are people too'.


repay their victims.

Yes, I would agree with that.


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Message 1140136 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 18:19:52 UTC - in response to Message 1140109.  

it's hardly the fault of the Europeans.

Yes is. Let Britain make it's own laws. Let the Europeans make theirs.


For those unable to follow the link:

Whatever the wrongs of the European Convention on Human Rights, it is doubtful they can be blamed wholly on foreigners. For a start, the convention was in large part the work of a Scottish Tory.

Raised in the genteel environment of Morningside, David Maxwell-Fyfe was the hard-working and ambitious son of a teacher. He went south, studied law, took silk, married Rex Harrison’s glamorous sister and became, at 35, a Conservative MP. He came to international attention in 1945 as deputy chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials. He was the only lawyer who got the better of Hermann Goering.

[...]

Appointed to serve on the Council of Europe, he became rapporteur on the team drafting the convention on human rights. The result drew heavily upon his expertise. In 1951, the United Kingdom became the first country to ratify the convention.

[...]

He was, of course, a man of his times. His European convention existed as a contract between its governmental signatories; a European Court where individuals could appeal against their own state was established only in 1959 and Britain did not accept its jurisdiction until 1966.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1140242 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 23:37:11 UTC

Metrolitan Police London Disorder Images; http://www.met.police.uk/disordersuspects/


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Message 1140361 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 10:04:05 UTC

Just wondering how much is being fraudulently spent & how many police officers it could fund.........

Government Credit Card Abuse
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Message 1140362 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 10:05:32 UTC - in response to Message 1140241.  

Best way to deal with them is to knock down all prisons & use the land for housing. THEN, rather than sell off all our military bases for the greedy money men to make millions from, use them as military prisons - no tv & leisure time there.


Not sure that nakes economic sense. Military bases do not have to my knowlege, secure accommodation for hundreds of prisoners to be locked up in cells. That would have to be provided. There was a plan once to employ floating prison ships, off the coast of te UK, but the on shore communities strongly objected.


The only UK prison ship closed in 2005 after 8 years as temporary measure. It was berthed at Portland in Dorset and was effectively a container tied to the dock. It needed extensive refitting to continue in this role and was deemed too costly.

Perhaps prison ships are not such a bad idea. Maybe the inmates can have a sense of being on a cruise whilst watching their TVs. Maybe the tax payers should pay for the diesel to sail them to the Caribean to enjoy the sun.

On the other hand let's not do any of that. What some of the rioters/looters are facing in loss of jobs, shame to their families and friends, disgrace, embarassment, ruined careers, possible evictions etc. is probably enough after receiving their sentence from court. At the end of the day all we can ask is that they face due process of law and due process of any situation where they have broken the law or the terms of a contract/agreement.


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Message 1140365 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 10:24:09 UTC - in response to Message 1140361.  

Just wondering how much is being fraudulently spent & how many police officers it could fund.........

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I think the answer is quite a lot and quite alot. It's disgusting that people, especially senior people who can more easily get away with it due to their status and are on very high salaries, do this in any organisation, private or public. They are all robbing that organisation and are quite simply thieves.

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Message 1140405 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 14:40:22 UTC - in response to Message 1140400.  

It is right that they should be punished for their misdeeds but the after effects of that have to be dealt with as well.


While I think their upbringing is certainly to blame, punishing their parents for the offenses of their children is certainly unacceptable.
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Message 1140421 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 15:36:40 UTC - in response to Message 1140405.  

It is right that they should be punished for their misdeeds but the after effects of that have to be dealt with as well.


While I think their upbringing is certainly to blame, punishing their parents for the offenses of their children is certainly unacceptable.

Corruption of blood is a UK thing.
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Message 1140459 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 17:07:50 UTC

Philadelphia

Blame the parents
An existing curfew for children has been made even earlier, and parents whose children repeatedly ignore the order could be fined up to $500 (£307).


Deputy Police Commissioner Kevin Bethel says he is praying for Britain's police
Philadelphia will keep some recreation centres open until 22:00 at the weekends so that the children barred from the city centre will have something to do.
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Message 1140466 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 17:34:00 UTC - in response to Message 1140460.  

While I think their upbringing is certainly to blame, punishing their parents for the offenses of their children is certainly unacceptable.


The law as I believe it stands in the UK is that, parents are fully LEGALLY responsible for their childrens actions up until the age of 14, inside and outside the home. Before that age they also cannot be named in court for legal reasons. After 14, the parents have a diminished legal responsibilty from 14 to 16.

I am not sure that is 100% correct, but I would be happy to see any other information.


Parents do have protection from the law if they have an unruly child
that they are struggling to bring under control. They report their child
to the social services. If the child continues to play up the parents are
now protected from any backlash from the courts, which also means they
won't get eviction notices resulting from any actions their child may
carryout in the future. As you will have read in the media, several mothers
dragged their yobbish kids to the police station because they were involved
in the riots last week. None of these mothers need worry now about possible
council house eviction notices being served on them.
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Message 1140501 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 19:28:12 UTC - in response to Message 1140466.  

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.
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Message 1140505 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 19:36:24 UTC

We know the drill. Mom works two jobs to get enough scratch to feed her brood and keep a roof over their heads. Dad is where? Kids come home to an empty house and raise hell and no one is there to know any better. I suppose Mom could pop home and lock the kid in a cage so it won't get into trouble.

The problem isn't the Mom. The problem is the society that puts a bunch of these Moms together in one building so the kids get together in mobs. Another solution might be for society to pay the Mom enough at her job so she only has to work during school hours and she can spend the rest at home watching over the kid. Another might be group rearing of children where Moms take turns with the kids.

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Message 1140511 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 19:48:08 UTC - in response to Message 1140501.  

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.

It happens, private landlords are very sensitive to some crimes. Asset forfeiture laws, if the building was used in the crime, the landlord can loose it. Mostly things like running a drug lab or running a house of prostitution.

Taking a very quick read through of Section 8, it doesn't look like crime disqualifies for assistance.

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Message 1140524 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 20:22:34 UTC - in response to Message 1140511.  

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.

It happens, private landlords are very sensitive to some crimes. Asset forfeiture laws, if the building was used in the crime, the landlord can loose it. Mostly things like running a drug lab or running a house of prostitution.


I was thinking more specific to the case(s) at hand.
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Message 1140541 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 21:11:35 UTC - in response to Message 1140460.  

While I think their upbringing is certainly to blame, punishing their parents for the offenses of their children is certainly unacceptable.


The law as I believe it stands in the UK is that, parents are fully LEGALLY responsible for their childrens actions up until the age of 14, inside and outside the home. Before that age they also cannot be named in court for legal reasons. After 14, the parents have a diminished legal responsibilty from 14 to 16.

I am not sure that is 100% correct, but I would be happy to see any other information.


Currently yes, But up until 1967, parents were responsible for their offspring to the age of 21. Unfortunately, the labour government at the time decided they needed to change the law.....

...unlike labour nearly 40 years later.....introduce 100's of useless laws
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Message 1140546 - Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 21:33:59 UTC - in response to Message 1140524.  
Last modified: 14 Aug 2011, 21:37:39 UTC

Not too much different from the US... kids are the legal responsibility of their parents up to the age of 17/18.

However, I don't think any family would be evicted from their home because of what their child/children did.

It happens, private landlords are very sensitive to some crimes. Asset forfeiture laws, if the building was used in the crime, the landlord can loose it. Mostly things like running a drug lab or running a house of prostitution.


I was thinking more specific to the case(s) at hand.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/20/local/la-me-0720-prisoner-reentry-20110720
San Francisco may bar employers, landlords from asking about arrests, convictions
July 20, 2011|By Lee Romney, Los Angeles Times
City officials are considering a law that would prohibit private employers, landlords and city contractors from inquiring about an individual's arrest or conviction history before determining whether that person is qualified for a job or housing.

If the law is approved, San Francisco would join Hawaii, New York, Massachusetts and Philadelphia in protecting most people with criminal records from blanket discrimination in the private job market. A handful of jurisdictions in Illinois and Wisconsin impose similar restrictions on landlords, and Seattle is now weighing a proposal comparable to San Francisco's that does both.


[edit]I see Philadelphia is listed here and as fining parents if their kids are caught out after curfew. Interesting. Any relationship?
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Message 1140605 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 0:24:02 UTC
Last modified: 15 Aug 2011, 0:27:01 UTC

The whole UK rioting is somewhat connected with Paris riot few years ago and middle eastern rioting. Because basic trigger events and event fuelings are all the same in those countries. Basically it is social injustice on middle/lower class or on immigrant community but keep explained with other social causes as kind of camouflage.
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Message 1140616 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 0:44:33 UTC - in response to Message 1140506.  

Mum doesn't help by getting involved with a useless git that disappears as soon as he realises she is pregnant. Left winger do gooders don't help by encouraging "affordable housing" which gets given to the wrong people, rather than those it was intended for.


Yeah, it's all the fault of the left wing do gooders (the opposite of which is, presumably, right wing do badders) that there are useless gits of boyfriends that leave behind pregnant women. If only there were more of the do badders about, these women would be looked after, right?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1140712 - Posted: 15 Aug 2011, 6:38:20 UTC - in response to Message 1140616.  

Mum doesn't help by getting involved with a useless git that disappears as soon as he realises she is pregnant. Left winger do gooders don't help by encouraging "affordable housing" which gets given to the wrong people, rather than those it was intended for.


Yeah, it's all the fault of the left wing do gooders (the opposite of which is, presumably, right wing do badders) that there are useless gits of boyfriends that leave behind pregnant women. If only there were more of the do badders about, these women would be looked after, right?

The point that Chris S is making is a very good one. Young couples on low or no incomes qualify for benefits help. They may have children and find the cost of their social housing completely covered. In some cases the father leaves and the woman and children remain funded by the welfare state. Some young people see this as a way to live without getting jobs, intentionally living off the State.

Both 'lefties' and 'righties' have allowed this to continue over the last 50 years of the welfare state. The way this taking advantage of the welfare system by such parents has become a way of life without any attempt to get a job or encourage their children to get a job. This has led in part (there are many other and complex reasons) to the broken and sick society eluded to by David Cameron recently.

The problems underlying the riots have been the fault in part of the previous left Labour governments as stated recently by their leader Ed Milliband. It is not a left v. right political argument but for the government/police/judicial system as a whole to find the reasons behind the riots and to identify and implement solutions.


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