Good report from the other side of the pond & the comments make interesting reading.


Ron Radosh

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I Fully understand your point of view, but this problem goes deeper.
I don't think the solution is in the state to fund this people, by giving them allowances.
Why should i want to work if i can earn money for drinking and party without doing anything and just by complaining that society is bad for me and is impossible for me to integrate?
When you really want a honest job or work, you will find it. this i know as i've been in the bottom. There was a point in my life where it was hard. I made a choice, to work!
The only problem with my choice, is that to work, look for a job and earn money is to damn hard.
Most of them just don't want to work.

What reasons did they have to be angry about?. Perhaps angry because they
came to realise that the state only supports them to a certain extent. That
as soon as they hit early manhood suddenly realised that they were going to
have to be dependent on themselves. Angry now, but angry with themselves
for not having prepared themselves adequately. Now in emotional shock because
they realise that they lack aspirations because they have no tools to use to aspire with.
Self denial sets in because the truth about themselves generates
depressive thoughts and this stops them from generating constructive solutions
to solving their rapidly deteriorating circumstances. Now they stupidly find it
antedotal to blame others for their situation, just listen to their un-coherent
excuses for having done what they did this week.
Put it down to inadequate parental guidance. Put it down also to schools
lacking powers to take better control of these type kids early on
so that they can control them and guide them if their parents, that's if
they have both at home, are failing to do so.

Don't hate da playa, hate da game! You can correctly lay blame on these individuals all you want, helping them understand through compassion and not swift vengeance is the only way to solve the problem.

Whats now the final solution for them...I suggest that five years in
one of our military establishments.

So they can have their individuality further beaten out of them? Mandatory military conscription to "fix" them? Sure didn't help my brother, he came out worse than when he went in. What's that you say? You're going to win some and lose some? Then methinks there must be a better way.

Strict discipline to get them
focused on themselves and at the same time teach them a trade.

I find that the more strict you become, the more people rebel. I think you're suggesting more of the same.

It was said that when the UK had National Service it sorted out
many a lout and many of these ex-louts were very pleased that they
had the experience of the service to straighten them out.

Sure, if you only hear it from the successful ones. And those who make it through AA here in the states brag that it was the best experience they've had to make them sober, doesn't mean it should be recommended for everyone.

We have gone through the experience of letting social workers exercise
their philosophies on these louts by having "hug a hoody" sessions
and that we must spend time trying to understand them. This is not
the solution, the correct solution is to get them to understand themselves.

I agree with your last statement, but everything else here you said is wrong. If you want to help them understand themselves, becoming more strict and teaching them how cold the world can be is only what created this situation in the first place.

No, in fact a "hug a hoody" session is precisely what is needed. We need to make T-shirts!

The best place to recondition them for a better life would be a constructive period
in the services. Not only will they come to understand themselves here
but also to start to be able to value themselves too. And to value
yourself then you'll get no better training in this than from that
coming from any of our services.

Absolute and pure hogwash! The only substantive evidence you have to support your position is the success stories. Talk to the ones it didn't work for and see if they say the same things as the successful ones.

I grew up in a fairly bad (certainly not anything like the south side of Chicago, but bad nonetheless), financially poor neighborhood. I've seen first hand the way things are in these neighborhoods. I started going down the wrong road myself.

I can guarantee you that if I had been forced into any sort of military school or service, I would have come out worse than when I had gone in. These people need someone to show them the way, and shown that people do care about them and their lives. They are obviously not getting it at home, we don't need the military to show them that they will receive more of the same for the rest of their lives.

Or is it that these types of people are the perfect ones to send off to die in another pointless war? Get rid of the riffraff of society by using population control?

As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted.

Maybe you felt the same way a few months ago when you had your ass beat severely, and in your drunken stupor you thought those who did it to you were from the US government. Maybe you feel you "deserved" it and it was warranted.

No, in fact a "hug a hoody" session is precisely what is needed. We need to make T-shirts!

I'd be quite happy to wear one of these, but a little puzzled how I can get into jail and hug one of these criminals through a steel door.

I'm joking of course, but then it's all a joke, of course.

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I agree with your last statement

Good OzzF4|/|, we share some common ground.

The best place to recondition them for a better life would be a constructive period
in the services. Not only will they come to understand themselves here
but also to start to be able to value themselves too. And to value
yourself then you'll get no better training in this than from that
coming from any of our services.

Absolute and pure hogwash!

I agree. It's demeaning for the forces as a profession for someone to suggest that criminal hoddies join then as a place to deal with criminality rather than a place where professionals train and do a job. Which is defend our country.

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Hot Rod scene,You're the voice

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Janice

As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted.

Maybe you felt the same way a few months ago when you had your ass beat severely, and in your drunken stupor you thought those who did it to you were from the US government. Maybe you feel you "deserved" it and it was warranted.

Well, I was in my own home, not out about the town rioting, burning, and looting.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted.

Maybe you felt the same way a few months ago when you had your ass beat severely, and in your drunken stupor you thought those who did it to you were from the US government. Maybe you feel you "deserved" it and it was warranted.

Well, I was in my own home, not out about the town rioting, burning, and looting.

A well said reply. Another example; Shoplifting a water bottle is one thing, but taking one in a riot is just absolutely a different thing all together. Both totally unacceptable but the latter taking part in a riot is even more unacceptable adds further to that particular criminality.

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I, like many seem to, blame the parents.

An example of appropriate police response, I hope many agree.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted.

Maybe you felt the same way a few months ago when you had your ass beat severely, and in your drunken stupor you thought those who did it to you were from the US government. Maybe you feel you "deserved" it and it was warranted.

Well, I was in my own home, not out about the town rioting, burning, and looting.

It's never warranted was the correct response.

Wandsworth Council in London have issued the first steps to evict a family from it's social housing after a member in the family has been convicted after the riots. They are clear that the conditions of tenure have been breached by the actions of the family member. Asked if it was right to make a family homeless a councillor said that the suggestion that parents could never be responsible for what their children did was a suggestion people could make. If the court upheld the conviction the family would be deemed to be making themselves intentionally homeless and the council would have no responsibility to house them. The councillor said the tenancy agreement effectively had a line which made it clear that if crossed the council would seek possession of their property.

Please refer to the news for exact quotes and wording used. The individual concerned was rioting in the Clapham Junction area.

This petition is back up, over 120,000 signatories to date

Here's another link; http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

"Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them."

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That is not a very helpful post Ozz.

Sometimes you have to be a little blunt to get your point across. I care a lot for Mark and I would never want to see anyone hurt him, nor do I think it was right for it to happen to him - but it happened nonetheless.

Absolute and pure hogwash![/quote]
I agree. It's demeaning for the forces as a profession for someone to suggest that criminal hoddies join then as a place to deal with criminality rather than a place where professionals train and do a job. Which is defend our country.[/quote]

If there was a world war going on then they would be, just like all others, in one of the services defending the country. Professionals train or train to be professionals, the latter I think. I spent 20 years working with the MOD in the UK as a civilian filling a military mans post. Over that 20 years I saw what could be achieved with so many who were lost within themselves. These results, by the way, were not gained via the use of any form of corporal punishment...I believe even our Army have stopped using these tactics now. Social problems experienced by ex-military personnel appears to center around those who chose to follow a non-traded path through the service.

I spent 20 years working with the MOD in the UK as a civilian filling a military mans post. Over that 20 years I saw what could be achieved with so many who were lost within themselves.

I see the same things said about AA or any other 12-step program to help people with their lives. While I think its wonderful that people have found ways to make themselves better, I have a problem when someone thinks the same solution should be mandated to everyone else thinking the outcome will be the same.

Social problems experienced by ex-military personnel appears to center around those who chose to follow a non-traded path through the service.

Damn those who don't want to make the military a trade! Sure, we can make excuses all day about why a particular solution doesn't work for everyone, or we can accept that forced conscription isn't the proper answer.

I spent 20 years working with the MOD in the UK as a civilian filling a military mans post. Over that 20 years I saw what could be achieved with so many who were lost within themselves.

I see the same things said about AA or any other 12-step program to help people with their lives. While I think its wonderful that people have found ways to make themselves better, I have a problem when someone thinks the same solution should be mandated to everyone else thinking the outcome will be the same.

Social problems experienced by ex-military personnel appears to center around those who chose to follow a non-traded path through the service.

Damn those who don't want to make the military a trade! Sure, we can make excuses all day about why a particular solution doesn't work for everyone, or we can accept that forced conscription isn't the proper answer.

No ones advocating that they have "The total solution" Ozz, what if any
do you suggest may be an appropriate solution to the current problem?

No ones advocating that they have "The total solution" Ozz, what if any
do you suggest may be an appropriate solution to the current problem?

I'm pretty sure I've already stated in brevity what an appropriate solution is. I cannot give a detailed analysis since I do not have all the facts, but I do not believe in pre-judging them or their actions with flippant views and swift justice.

David Cameron back councils planning to evict rioters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14509779

The prime minister has said people who "loot and pillage their own community" should be evicted from council houses.

Wandsworth in London has become the first council to serve an eviction notice over the riots, but several others are also considering the move.

David Cameron told the BBC he thought evictions were a way of "enforcing responsibility in our society".

He said those who might struggle as a result "should have thought of that before they started burgling".

Nottingham City Council, Salford City Council and Westminster, Greenwich and Hammersmith and Fulham councils in London have all said they will consider serving eviction notices.

At present, local authorities can apply them only if troublemakers are involved in disorder in their local area.

But Community Secretary Eric Pickles is planning a 12-week consultation on whether powers should be extended to allow councils to punish those convicted of what he called "riot tourism" in other areas.

It is believed that many people who got involved in the riots and disorder travelled some distance to do so.
'Criminal networks'

Mr Cameron told the BBC's North West Tonight: "If you live in a council house you're getting a house at a discount from what other people have to pay and with that should come some responsibility.

"For too long we've taken a too soft attitude towards people that loot and pillage their own community. If you do that you should lose your right to the sort of housing that you've had at subsidised rates.

“These people have done their best to make people frightened on the streets where they live”

Eric Pickles Communities Secretary

"Obviously, that will mean they've got to be housed somewhere else - they'll have to find housing in the private sector - and that will be tougher for them, but they should have thought of that before they started burgling."

The prime minister also said there could be a knock-on benefit to the policy because it "might help break up some of the criminal networks on some housing estates if some of these people are thrown out of their houses".

Earlier, Mr Pickles told the BBC it was not time to "pussyfoot around".

"These people have done their best to make people frightened on the streets where they live," he said.

"They've done their best to destroy neighbourhoods, and frankly I don't feel terribly sympathetic towards them."

Conservative-run Wandsworth Council has issued an eviction notice to a council tenant whose son has appeared in court charged in connection with Monday night's disturbances in Clapham Junction.

The notice is the first stage in the legal process of eviction - the final decision will rest with a county court judge.

Neither the tenant nor their son can be named at this stage for legal reasons.

Council leader Ravi Govindia said: "This council will do its utmost to ensure that those who are responsible pay a proper price for their conduct."

The Department for Communities and Local Government is already consulting on proposals for a new mandatory power of possession for landlords with anti-social tenants.

The most popular e-petition on the government's website currently calls for convicted rioters to lose their benefits. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

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but I do not believe in pre-judging them or their actions with flippant views and swift justice.

Well then Ozz, you would be out of touch with, and at odds with, the view over here.

It may very well be the view "over there", just as I'm sure there are some "over here" that agree with your view - doesn't make it the right view.

I find myself at odds with any group that wants vengeance and swift justice over a more humane thinking process. Are you suggesting that I must "go with the flow" so that I am not at odds with anyone? Because its not gonna happen. Humanity and the spirit of the law are more important than the basic human emotions most tend to allow themselves to be ruled by, and try to justify their positions accordingly.

Some magistrates courts in London sat throughout the night for a second time, and there were also late evening sittings in Birmingham and Manchester.

Swift justice is a deterrent to those that are considering further disruption. The enhanced police presence in our major cities will continue over all of the weekend. The message is clear. You commit criminal acts, your feet won't touch, you'll be in prison with a criminal record within 48 hours.

The swift justice argument does not work as a deterrent because people break the law for three common reasons or motivations:

1) Compulsion. You are a compulsive person and you cannot help yourself. You will break the law regardless. Those people growing up in a disadvantaged neighborhood will feel easily compelled to rebel or riot once they feel they've been turned upon by their own kind, hence why they think the "rich" are their enemies.

2) Profit. These people know they are stealing for personal gain, yet they do it anyway. They are well aware that if they get caught, they will have a record and probably have a record for the rest of their lives. But they choose to do it anyway.

3) Passion. These are the ones that are rioting with a cause. They feel that have little or nothing left to lose. They feel backed into a corner and they feel a loss of control over their own lives. They know that what they are doing is wrong, but they want to express themselves in the only way they know how. It means people need to learn to listen to one another a little better.


The idea that once you've sentenced someone for a crime, the idea that it keeps the criminal from having any more influence upon others who might do the same, that once you put them in jail no one will willingly choose to follow in their footsteps, the notion that all the ideas are locked up with the criminal behind bars... hehe yeah. Deterrent. Two words for you: Jesus Christ.