None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

Yes, I did. And I knew they had firearms. You didn't face that.

How do you know that? Remember a guy was shot an killed in Croydon during the riot. Four black males breaking into a store were very likely to be carrying. But you are correct I did not consider that possibility at the time.

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I guess as usual americans and british are just sliding into typical cultural clashes rather than thoughtful debates.

It is the british members who actually feel and taste the reality of this event. For outsiders we can offer only best guessing solutions of this riot or some mini civil war.

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Mandtugai!

Good point Gary, but from what I heard listening to Fox news the other evening
the USA has got it's own problems similar to ours.

Yes we have riots. Yes we have criminal gangs/thugs. Yes we have horrible unemployment.

Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late?

Not bloody likely. The pressure here is incredible to get the story out. If the press hears about something it will be published here and there are too dang many people with cell phone cameras to ever think any big story is going to be suppressed at all. Faux however needs sensationalism to sell more advertising.

Still, the USA
has got too many financial problems to wont to make things worse by cutting us
off as an export market of theirs. We may be thinking of carrying out
suppressive actions to combat techno-controlled gangs but remember when it comes
to suppressing criminal activities.."we don't suppress them to the point of execution like you
do in the USA" Would this not be a good enough reason
for the UK not to do business with the USA? This is not a dig at you Gary for
what you do is your business and what we do is ours as long as no one goes too silly?

Not taken as a dig. What I am telling you it is far to easy to come up with a scape goat of a inanimate object and far to hard to admit you (government policies) are the one at fault.

When the Rodney King riot happened cell phones were not ubiquitous and the size of a suitcase. However the gangs were still able to target specific people and businesses for destruction. It isn't the technology that is at fault. It is the conditions that lead to the gangs that is a fault. High unemployment, absentee parents and a huge profit margin on drugs. Crime is more profitable than a job. That is the root cause.

We haven't addressed this in the USA. I don't think we have the political will to do so or even the intelligence in the political arena to see that it is the root cause of the problem. There are far too many people whose minds are hermetically sealed.

California is in a unique position on this now. It has been ordered to turn out around half the people who are presently in prison. Why? Because California doesn't have the money to build enough prison cells to house all the people its laws make criminals out of. Time to rethink how long sentences should be and what should be a crime.

My comment about delayed punishment is important. While the riot is ongoing the important thing is to stop it immediately. The real threat of dead bodies on the street will do that. I just don't think "we will catch you later" has that same effect as a rioter isn't thinking rationally to begin with.

[edit]Perhaps my 20 years of hindsight on this isn't what you want to hear right now.

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None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

Yes, I did. And I knew they had firearms. You didn't face that.

How do you know that? Remember a guy was shot an killed in Croydon during the riot. Four black males breaking into a store were very likely to be carrying. But you are correct I did not consider that possibility at the time.

You are right I don't know that. All I know is firearms are much less likely to be available in England. Where as in California firearms are near certain in gang crime.

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Now this could be a very interesting tool for law enforcement agencies...

WASP

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Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late?
Not bloody likely. The pressure here is incredible to get the story out. If the press hears about something it will be published here and there are too dang many people with cell phone cameras to ever think any big story is going to be suppressed at all. Faux however needs sensationalism to sell more advertising.

Well, when I heard this media remark I was very surprised too...so I hope too that
this was a bit of hype on Fox's behalf.

I guess as usual americans and british are just sliding into typical cultural clashes rather than thoughtful debates.

Orgil...we each find each others cultures interesting and love experiencing them.
Both us and the USA think this world can't survive without them. So
isn't it good that we and the USA therefore have something in common.
But we don't actually care about commonalities 'cos we just like being friends with each other..
...'cos you never know whats ahead in the future.

You are right Bernie, nobody knows how you felt inside. I do know adrenalin was rushing through your system. I also know, you weren't thinking about your own safety, but that of the community, when you put the rubbish bins out. The thugs could have still been out there, so I very glad you are physically fine.
No doubt this changed you. I hope you will find a way to let laughter back into your life.

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Pluto will always be a planet to me.

Seti Ambassador
Not to late to order an Anni Shirt

..
Both us and the USA think this world can't survive without them. So
isn't it good that we and the USA therefore have something in common.
But we don't actually care about commonalities 'cos we just like being friends with each other..
...'cos you never know whats ahead in the future.

I know it is some deep ethnological criss crossing going on. Also it helps sharing same language, religion and gene types to criss cross.

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Mandtugai!

Riots are a natural occurrence.
Given the right conditions they are bound to happen.
The causes can be almost infinite.
Riots in the middle east have for the most part been a boon to social change for the better.
Riots are most often a symptom of a societal disharmony.
Find the underlying causes and address the problems.
More Police and criminal sanctions will only obfuscate, and never address, the real problems, or lead to any real solutions.
Maybe Young people feel that their future is being mortgaged away so that those
now in power and their electorate can have a few golden years for themselves despite
the dire warnings coming from all fronts.
Climate Change, Future Pension and Medical Entitlements, Peak/Drop Oil production,
increased life expectancy , growing global populations, water shortages, decreased food
production, are all problems that those in power now, and those who got them
elected will surely outlive.
So YEAH Young people are worried, they may even freak out at times,
but we are the ones with our heads buried in the sand Hoping and Praying that
all will work itself out in the end.
IF only prayer worked,

Surely WE can do better.

Progress never follows a straight line for sometimes you can go as much
backwards as you have gone forwards.

None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did.

None of you had to put out a fire in bins behind my flats because the fire brigade was too busy trying to put out numerous fires in Croydon. I did.

None of you could feel the same sadness and anger watching the images of MY TOWN looted and burning. The next morning I had tears in my eyes watching the pictures on TV

I could say the same thing about many points in my life toward everyone else. Does that give me the right to invalidate their opinions simply because I experienced it first hand? Does that somehow entitle me to tell them that they don't know what they're talking about when they may very well know?

Sure, you experienced something very, very horrible. Don't push everyone else away who disagrees with your conclusions. This is part of what is supposed to make mankind a better place.

I believe that at the moment a large percent of the law abiding public in UK cities would allow the government to bring in ANY measures it deemed necessary to stop these riots and any measures to bring the perpetrators to justice.

It's that kind of raw emotion and knee-jerk reaction that keeps us in the dark ages. We must show that we are better than them by still being able to show compassion for them unlike they did for you. That is what makes a stronger person.

I am not saying I agree, but I was there and my gut wants retribution whilst my head is trying to work out how we have come to this. Being there and seeing and hearing what was happening has left me torn, unable to concentrate at work, but somehow wanting to help but not knowing where to start,

It was terrifying, to say the least. I am very sorry you had to experience what you did. I can only hope you come out a stronger person and not embittered over the situation. Pull through and be strong for all of us.

To say that Blackberry Messenger is more important than lives and livelihoods will not go down well in many British cities at the moment.

No one here said that Blackberry Messenger is more important than human lives. What we've said is that people use the service legitimately, and you shouldn't punish all for the actions of a few. You shouldn't even punish a few for the actions of the majority.

Time is a healer and hopefully the UK will be able to work the problems out. Right now the people who caused this need to know we will not sit by and watch them destroy our communities.

This is NOT the USA this is the UK. The USA is not blameless where civil rights are concerned do not judge us in our anger.

Anger is an understandable human emotion. The collective anger in the US after 9/11, or the general unrest after Rodney King in LA surely captured a similar aura here in the states.

And I fully agree that the perpetrators need to be made aware of the error in their ways. As Soft^Spirit said, they were only hurting their fellow man and not the rich elite like they thought.

Just remember that they are human, and they have their own feelings and anger that they need to sort through. Help them with that. And it will help you with yours. I guarantee it.

Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late?
Not bloody likely. The pressure here is incredible to get the story out. If the press hears about something it will be published here and there are too dang many people with cell phone cameras to ever think any big story is going to be suppressed at all. Faux however needs sensationalism to sell more advertising.

Well, when I heard this media remark I was very surprised too...so I hope too that
this was a bit of hype on Fox's behalf.

I agree with Gary yet again. If what Fox said was true, there would be other news agencies ready to break the story. The fact that Fox said they have had to "cover it up" sounds to me like they're trying to instigate something that isn't really there... sort of like starting the spark through the power of suggestion.

And I fully agree that the perpetrators need to be made aware of the error in their ways. As Soft^Spirit said, they were only hurting their fellow man and not the rich elite like they thought.

Just remember that they are human, and they have their own feelings and anger that they need to sort through. Help them with that. And it will help you with yours. I guarantee it.

What reasons did they have to be angry about?. Perhaps angry because they
came to realise that the state only supports them to a certain extent. That
as soon as they hit early manhood suddenly realised that they were going to
have to be dependent on themselves. Angry now, but angry with themselves
for not having prepared themselves adequately. Now in emotional shock because
they realise that they lack aspirations because they have no tools to use to aspire with.
Self denial sets in because the truth about themselves generates
depressive thoughts and this stops them from generating constructive solutions
to solving their rapidly deteriorating circumstances. Now they stupidly find it
antedotal to blame others for their situation, just listen to their un-coherent
excuses for having done what they did this week.
Put it down to inadequate parental guidance. Put it down also to schools
lacking powers to take better control of these type kids early on
so that they can control them and guide them if their parents, that's if
they have both at home, are failing to do so.
Whats now the final solution for them...I suggest that five years in
one of our military establishments. Strict discipline to get them
focused on themselves and at the same time teach them a trade.
It was said that when the UK had National Service it sorted out
many a lout and many of these ex-louts were very pleased that they
had the experience of the service to straighten them out.
We have gone through the experience of letting social workers exercise
their philosophies on these louts by having "hug a hoody" sessions
and that we must spend time trying to understand them. This is not
the solution, the correct solution is to get them to understand themselves.
The best place to recondition them for a better life would be a constructive period
in the services. Not only will they come to understand themselves here
but also to start to be able to value themselves too. And to value
yourself then you'll get no better training in this than from that
coming from any of our services.

Chris, if England goes ahead with this, do not be surprised if England is placed on a list of repressive countries with which the USA will not do business.

I understand your anger and fear. I lived through two major civil riots. The rioters think they are playing a game. You have to make them realize it isn't a game. A delayed punishment isn't going to get their attention.

As to twitter and SMS, better to have them on. Then the logs will convict the instigators.

Good point Gary, but from what I heard listening to Fox news the other evening
the USA has got it's own problems similar to ours. Fox news went as far as to
say that the media has been suppressing certain events of late? Still, the USA
has got too many financial problems to wont to make things worse by cutting us
off as an export market of theirs. We may be thinking of carrying out
suppressive actions to combat techno-controlled gangs but remember when it comes
to suppressing criminal activities.."we don't suppress them to the point of execution like you
do in the USA" Would this not be a good enough reason
for the UK not to do business with the USA? This is not a dig at you Gary for
what you do is your business and what we do is ours as long as no one goes too silly?

The true extent of the problems have been suppressed in the UK media for a long time time, with certain boroughs not wanting it to be known just how bad the gang problem among the youth has become. Those of us who were working in frontline services with these youths are totally unsurprised by what we saw on the streets of London in the last week. I can even take a very educated guess as to which of my former students were out there rioting (and which ones weren't).

I taught these kids for years. It was damn hard as I was going up against their antagonistic attitude to all authority. People here talk about being able to use corporal punishment as if that would work. Lol. 90% of these kids will have been physically abused at home (don't phone home to so and so's parents or they'll beat him/her and put them in hospital). A good beating doesn't seem to have done them any good. They will have come from homes were drug abuse and alcohol abuse are common. I've met some of their parents and realised just what an uphill battle it will be to get them to invest in their education. I've known the brightest saddest of them who are involved in gangs and don't know how to get out (it's hard when your whole family is), so many of them are angry and full of bravado and the FU attitude but underneath they are just jelly. They are surrounded by adults who don't care or just use them. The police are the enemy.

I know these kids and because I know them I can't think that writing them off is the right answer. Condemn what they do, not who they are. I know they can be absolute little sh*ts, but I also know they can be better, I've seen what happens when someone takes and interest and tries to help them.

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Reality Internet Personality

The true extent of the problems have been suppressed in the UK media for a long time time, with certain boroughs not wanting it to be known just how bad the gang problem among the youth has become. Those of us who were working in frontline services with these youths are totally unsurprised by what we saw on the streets of London in the last week. I can even take a very educated guess as to which of my former students were out there rioting (and which ones weren't).

We know how bad it is, we know how many of them are killing each other
using knives and the occasional guns too. It not a case of our media
not reporting the facts but a case of it all now becoming so matter
of fact that it's stopped getting the full media attention that it
should really be getting.

Condemn what they do, not who they are. I know they can be absolute little sh*ts, but I also know they can be better, I've seen what happens when someone takes and interest and tries to help them.

I agree with this totally. The law is clear and punishments for breaking the law are clearly stated in our societies. You do the crime and you pay with the sentence a court decides. No one is punished for who they are, not in England at least, but for what they have done. Yes, as a society we should help those who want that help. For those who will not be helped, spurn that help and choose crime as a way to exist amongst us; they will continue to face the court's decisions.

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flaming balloons

This petition is back up, over 120,000 signatories to date

Here's another link; http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

"Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them."

I'm going to sign up when I can. It's a bit busy right now...

"The e-petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."

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flaming balloons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wDa4DjhjgXY

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Pluto will always be a planet to me.

Seti Ambassador
Not to late to order an Anni Shirt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wDa4DjhjgXY

Uli....hon.
There is a vast difference between the Vietnam protests....people protesting against a specific war...and what has been going on in the UK.

If the inane little brats think that destroying things and looting is going to improve their lot in life, they are as stupid and lawless as they seem.

As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Mark, I came across this by accident and thought it was relevant. Maybe not relevant to you, but it helps me understand, the history of the USA.

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Pluto will always be a planet to me.

Seti Ambassador
Not to late to order an Anni Shirt

There was a small riot in Chico California.

As near as anyone can figure out it was over Tastes great vs. less filling.(old beer commercial).

There is not always method to madness.

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Janice