Question about CyberPower PR2200 UPS

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Message 1129282 - Posted: 18 Jul 2011, 16:21:14 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jul 2011, 16:32:22 UTC

I was wondering if what the standby charge current was on CyberPower PR2200SWRM2U UPS? I need a UPS that can keep a 1200watt rig crunching thru power flickers.

Some of the newer UPS's don't constantly charge the battery; therefore, use less power. My older APC SmartUPS's draw about 20 watts to keep the batteries charged and the newer BackUPS don't, they seem to have an intelligent battery charger.
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Message 1129359 - Posted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:33:08 UTC

You could probably look for technical documentation, or just send an email to the company and ask. If they give you some generic cookie-cutter response, call and ask.

Intelligent charging is the way to go these days. I've got some older (5-ish years old) units and I replaced the batteries in them about three years ago, and a recent power flicker shut everything off completely. Guess it's time for a new batch of batteries.
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Message 1129363 - Posted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:37:44 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jul 2011, 18:45:24 UTC

Most of the UPS's these days are of the switched type. The only time they run the inverter and/or charge the batteries is when the controller says so. Nothing wrong with this. The <1ms switch over time is fine for almost anything these days.

The run time for your UPS, like most, is just a few minutes at full load. If you need to soak up more then 5-10 minute brown/black outs you would want to invest in an extended run time unit. Where you can purchase extra batteries. Normally the cheaper option is just to get a larger size unit than you need for more run time.
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Message 1129365 - Posted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:41:34 UTC - in response to Message 1129282.  

You also need to factor in the time you want the
UPS to supply backup power. 5? 10? 30 minutes?
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Message 1129585 - Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 6:37:47 UTC

Simple answer:
Assuming your PSU needs 1200W input power (check the rating label/data sheet it might say give an input power rating, or an input current)
The PR2200 family gives 1600W output
So yes, but there isn't much of a margin
Battery capacity = 36AHr(12V)
So at 1200W load you draw 5.25A(230V), or 100A at 12V (ignoring losses)
Thus the 36AHr battery would run for a maximum of (36/100)*60 minutes = 21 minutes (IGNORING LOSSES).
In practice this would be about 10-15 minutes by the time losses are taken into account.

Only you can judge if this is long enough, bearing in mind that it will take 8 hours of continuous charging to get the battery fully recharged.
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Message 1129843 - Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 22:35:37 UTC - in response to Message 1129585.  

My tri gtx295 pulls about 1050 - 1100 from the wall. I really only want to get over the flickers from thunder storms. 11 min would be fine, with about 5min for a shut down. Does anyone have one of these units to talk about charging efficiency.
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Message 1129850 - Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 23:13:07 UTC - in response to Message 1129843.  

My tri gtx295 pulls about 1050 - 1100 from the wall. I really only want to get over the flickers from thunder storms. 11 min would be fine, with about 5min for a shut down. Does anyone have one of these units to talk about charging efficiency.

You can get all of the units specs from the manufactures website.
With that units rated half/full run times of 12/4 minutes you might want to use any management software that came with it. Then you could have it automagically stop BOINC when the power reserves were low and then start it back up when the power returned.
While the batteries might hold up for 10-15 minutes the rest of the UPS might not be designed to do so. I would guess that with a 2U rack unit like this the inverter starts to heat up pretty quickly in such a small space.
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Message 1129990 - Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 9:21:13 UTC

UPS inverters are generally designed to run 100% for about 90% of the battery life. If properly cooled (forced air is goo enough, but can be noisy) then there should be no worries, even at high ambient temperatures.

If all you are interested in is the few seconds of flicker from a storm then a member of the PR2200 family would be quite adequate. However if you live in a area that has a high lightening strike rate you might end up with the battery not recharging enough between strikes and so gradually discharge it during a storm - in that situation I'd look for something with a bigger battery pack.

Don't forget that most UPS take between 10 and 100 times as long to recharge as they do discharge and they shutdown when the battery gets below a certain level of charge not a given run time this allows them to cope with variable loads. Also try to avoid turning additional loads on while running on a UPS as the start up load might cause the UPS to do an overload trip even though the final static load is well within the UPS's capability.
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Message 1129995 - Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 9:36:01 UTC - in response to Message 1129990.  

Don't forget that most UPS take between 10 and 100 times as long to recharge as they do discharge and they shutdown when the battery gets below a certain level of charge not a given run time this allows them to cope with variable loads.

I've got a couple of Yum-cha UPSs, 1500VA. They use 2*9AH batteries.
On one UPS i've replaced those with a couple of mid range car batteries. With a 40% load the run time is over 4 hours, however it takes about 4-5 days to recharge the batteries.
The UPS charge crcuit just provides a float charge to keep the batteries fully charged. It would appear from the charge times that the output of that circuit is *very* current limited.


Also try to avoid turning additional loads on while running on a UPS as the start up load might cause the UPS to do an overload trip even though the final static load is well within the UPS's capability.

CRT monitors are great for that.
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Message 1130107 - Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 17:10:22 UTC - in response to Message 1129995.  

Don't forget that most UPS take between 10 and 100 times as long to recharge as they do discharge and they shutdown when the battery gets below a certain level of charge not a given run time this allows them to cope with variable loads.

I've got a couple of Yum-cha UPSs, 1500VA. They use 2*9AH batteries.
On one UPS i've replaced those with a couple of mid range car batteries. With a 40% load the run time is over 4 hours, however it takes about 4-5 days to recharge the batteries.
The UPS charge crcuit just provides a float charge to keep the batteries fully charged. It would appear from the charge times that the output of that circuit is *very* current limited.

One place I worked we had UPS systems from Best Power. They use large lead acid batteries in the semi standard boat/car size. So when they original batteries started to go I ordered deep cycle marine batteries of the same capacity for replacements. They were a lot cheaper then the $300-$400 a piece the manufacture wanted.

The first time I did this instead of matching the batteries capacity I got the largest capacity battery that would fit in the enclosure, about a 2' cube for a 1KVA unit. It was a mistake in that case as it ended up burning out the charging circuit.

Also try to avoid turning additional loads on while running on a UPS as the start up load might cause the UPS to do an overload trip even though the final static load is well within the UPS's capability.

CRT monitors are great for that.

What are these "CRT monitors" of which you speak? :) </sarcasm>
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Message 1130224 - Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 21:34:27 UTC

TLDR: More AH can be good, but not always. Too much will fry the charge controller or take entirely too long to recharge. Sometimes when ordering new battery kits, you can order the wrong one for cheaper and it ends up being better than the right one.

[long post]
I've got a few 1400's here (5 in total.. 4 for my desk, 1 for the other room). Presently, only one has good batteries.. the other four need new kits. *grumble grumble* Last time I did it, one of the APC units has 3 batteries that were... I think 6AH and the replacement ones I found for $40 cheaper than the correct kit were 9AH. Gave me 11 minutes at 40%, but it would shut off in 6 minutes.

The most recent APC only uses two batteries that were 9AH. I salvaged two rack-mount Tripp Lites from work that needed new batteries and again, I ordered the wrong kit and it came with 4 12AH batteries when I only needed 3 8AH for each. So those two have theoretically 50% more run time, but it left me with two 12AH batteries that have been sitting on my workbench for three years without being charged or drained. I put those in the newest APC and it reports that with my load of 337 watts (42%), I have 13 minutes of run time.

Recent power outage (was a brown out that ended up going to blackout.. got down to 104VAC on the input and then the power went out and came back two hours later at 126V) gave me a good run of these "new" batteries. I actually didn't run it down. It did exactly what it was supposed to.. gave me enough time for a graceful shutdown, and then the standby draw from the rig, modem and router, and an extension cord to plug in the Linux laptop was a total of 21 watts, which starting at 70% charge remaining was 122 minutes of run time.

After 94 minutes though, it shut itself off with 20% remaining. I had to get a power inverter and hook it up in the car and get a longer extension cord to keep that laptop's AC cord active since the battery has been "charging" for the past 5 years.

[/long post]
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record uptime: 1511d 20h 19m (ended due to the power brick giving-up)
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Message 1130273 - Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 23:48:11 UTC - in response to Message 1130224.  

Anyone feel up for recommending an affordable, decent UPS that can handle 1000W? More interested in random flicker protection than uptime.


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Message 1132079 - Posted: 26 Jul 2011, 3:28:00 UTC

I like the APC Smart UPS, but only 865 watts

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500G

Fry's frequently has these on sale, plus rebate for about 120 bucks. Haven't lost one yet, but I've lost four older models with the dreaded overload fault.
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Message 1132210 - Posted: 26 Jul 2011, 14:07:31 UTC - in response to Message 1132079.  
Last modified: 26 Jul 2011, 14:41:26 UTC

I like the APC Smart UPS, but only 865 watts

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500G

Fry's frequently has these on sale, plus rebate for about 120 bucks. Haven't lost one yet, but I've lost four older models with the dreaded overload fault.

I have the best buy version of that unit. The difference is the model number is BX1500G instead of BR1500G.
Slavac,
If you want to support 1000w you will probably need at least a 1600va UPS or larger. To get a quick rough estimate for how many watts the smaller home UPS systems can provide you can use 60% of its VA rating. For a 1000va unit I would expect a rating of around 600w. With the larger/commercial units it can be more like 90%.

If I needed to keep a 1000w load up I would go for either the Smart 2200 or Start On-line 2200. Yes they are expensive, but so it all of that hardware you are trying to protect.
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Message 1132280 - Posted: 26 Jul 2011, 20:47:09 UTC

In an ideal world (from the battery point-of-view) you do not want to exceed the ten hour rate, charge or discharge.

If you discharge most lead-acid batteries (and I don't know of any that use a different chemistry) above that rate, the batteries get hot, and live a short life.

... which is fine if outages are unusual.

In other words, if you want the batteries to live, you need at least ten hours of run time at your normal load.

For charging, anything less than 1000 hours is okay.

According to the National Electric Code, a UPS plugged into a 15 amp plug shall not draw more than 12 amps continuous. That is the main limit on charging rate: the easiest way to power the systems behind the UPS, charge the batteries, and not draw too much current is to charge slowly.
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Message 1132395 - Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 3:04:14 UTC - in response to Message 1132280.  
Last modified: 27 Jul 2011, 3:21:45 UTC

In an ideal world (from the battery point-of-view) you do not want to exceed the ten hour rate, charge or discharge.

If you discharge most lead-acid batteries (and I don't know of any that use a different chemistry) above that rate, the batteries get hot, and live a short life.

... which is fine if outages are unusual.

In other words, if you want the batteries to live, you need at least ten hours of run time at your normal load.

For charging, anything less than 1000 hours is okay.

According to the National Electric Code, a UPS plugged into a 15 amp plug shall not draw more than 12 amps continuous. That is the main limit on charging rate: the easiest way to power the systems behind the UPS, charge the batteries, and not draw too much current is to charge slowly.


So if I'm understanding that correctly I would need an UPS big enough to power my rigs for 10 hours till the battery dies? If I don't have that correct please let me know because that would be a pretty major UPS unit. (I know nothing about them other than what they are used for, never had to service/replace or buy any that's always been someone else's job!)

The reason I ask is all this conversation along with lightning and tornadoes we have had this year is making me look incredibly hard at UPS units. So far I've got something like this in mind:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11599599&search=ups&Mo=32&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=ups&Ntt=ups&No=31&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

But I'm not sure if 1500VA/900watt would be enough or not for my machine(s). Another thing I've got in the back of my head is some manufactuers are saying systems with energy start 80+ certs need a pure sin wave versus 'whatever else there is' to be effective. Something about they don't swap over fast enough on the newer systems? So many things.
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Message 1132440 - Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 5:38:42 UTC

Very marginal - remember your computer PSU delivers 1000W to your computer, so will need at least 1200W, if not more, "at the wall".

The way UPS work is to be in line all the time. There are two sections to the electronics, first transformer/rectifier stage to give 12V (or whatever is needed to charge the batter), then a stage that converts 12VDC to your local mains (since you are in the US I assume that's 110V/60H AC). Obviously the first stage supplies a bit more than the final output power to charge the battery, but the output stage is designed to give the rating and maybe a little bit more for a couple of cycles before it shuts down. So a 900w output UPS will be on the margins of being overloaded all the time, if not overloaded, a great way to quantify the amount of smoke contained by the UPS.

For your 1000W output computer supply you need bigger, at least 50% bigger (at least 1250Watts of output, which Costco don't do.
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Message 1132570 - Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 14:50:49 UTC - in response to Message 1132395.  

So if I'm understanding that correctly I would need an UPS big enough to power my rigs for 10 hours till the battery dies? If I don't have that correct please let me know because that would be a pretty major UPS unit. (I know nothing about them other than what they are used for, never had to service/replace or buy any that's always been someone else's job!)

The reason I ask is all this conversation along with lightning and tornadoes we have had this year is making me look incredibly hard at UPS units. So far I've got something like this in mind:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11599599&search=ups&Mo=32&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=ups&Ntt=ups&No=31&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

But I'm not sure if 1500VA/900watt would be enough or not for my machine(s). Another thing I've got in the back of my head is some manufactuers are saying systems with energy start 80+ certs need a pure sin wave versus 'whatever else there is' to be effective. Something about they don't swap over fast enough on the newer systems? So many things.


I looked though the documentation for my 80Plus power supplies and my UPS's. Neither say anything about needing a true sine wave UPS to power 80Plus certified devices. This is what Enermax has to say about using a UPS with their supplies.
If you want to add the UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) for your system,
please choose adequate Watts/VA capacity UPS. Ex.
	PSU Model	Suggested minimum UPS output power capacity
			(Based on efficiency & PFC at respective load)
	EPG500AWT		600W / 1000VA
	EPG600AWT		700W / 1100VA
	EPG700AWT		800W / 1200VA
* If you intend to add other appliance powered by the same UPS, such as monitor
or printer, please use higher capacity UPS according to all connected devices’ rated power draw.
* Please do not mistake VA capacity as Watts, or use insufficient power UPS.
This would result in less UPS battery runtime or the inability to power the system in battery mode.

The APC unit I have produces "Stepped approximation to a sinewave". Which I have not had a problem with over the past year or two. I am sure the older APC unit I have in the living room on my HTPC also does not produce a "pure sinewave" output.

Perhaps the PSUs are not as efficient with the stepped sinewave output or something along those lines. However for keeping the computer equipment on under load for the time specified I have not had a problem.

This past weekend was a good test of that with the power going out several times. I was watching a movie from the HTPC and I only noticed the power went out because the ceiling fan had stopped. After the 2nd or 3rd outage I turned off the receiver and paused BOINC as I wasn't sure if the batteries would be able to handle another 10-15 minutes.

At some point I want to use the old 240v line that was used for an electric dryer and run it to my main computer area. Then either get a 240v to 240v or a 240v to 120v UPS. So I will be able to get a 3000va or larger unit
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Message 1132606 - Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 16:55:04 UTC

My machines are only 750 watt and 580 watt not 1000. ;)

I've been doing some reading about the wattage and VA ratings, what they mean and how to calculate what you need. From my judgments I would either need a 2500VA unit which = $$$$ or two separate 900 watt units. After doing a bit more reading and now understanding what's going on the 80 watt thing was a misstatement.

It boils down to sine wave and simulated sine, an Active PFC supply, which most 'quality' 80+er's are now have an active PFC. If that's the case you need a true sin wave or when the power goes out supposedly it isn't quick enough (is that the right term?) and the computer will just die due to irregularities in power. (Or could not sure if it's so or not.)

Due to this issue and not knowing for sure I have found a different set I think I'm going to go with, it should give either machine 5+ minutes of run time depending on what's running for me to shut them down or survive through a power blink. They aren't too cost prohibitive but are a bit more pricey a $199 a piece, meaning I'll need two.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102134

The way I've figured it up my main rig (Q9650/GTX480) with both 22" monitors included will need about 1325VA to sustain under load. If my reasoning is right I should pull about 10 minutes of run time out of that thing, but I'm not sure. Still researching. What do you guys think about that one?
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Message 1132662 - Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 19:30:19 UTC - in response to Message 1132606.  

My machines are only 750 watt and 580 watt not 1000. ;)

Is that the load from the outlet or just the PSU ratings? If it is just the output ratings the 750w supply could draw between 850w & 940w depending on its efficiency at full load. I would guestimate the load of your C2Q system in the 375w-450w range.

I've been doing some reading about the wattage and VA ratings, what they mean and how to calculate what you need. From my judgments I would either need a 2500VA unit which = $$$$ or two separate 900 watt units. After doing a bit more reading and now understanding what's going on the 80 watt thing was a misstatement.

It boils down to sine wave and simulated sine, an Active PFC supply, which most 'quality' 80+er's are now have an active PFC. If that's the case you need a true sin wave or when the power goes out supposedly it isn't quick enough (is that the right term?) and the computer will just die due to irregularities in power. (Or could not sure if it's so or not.)

If you mean the time it takes to switch to battery power that is normally the "transfer time" rating you will see in the specs for the device. The one you listed below switches in 4ms. The period for one cycle at 60Hz is 16.7ms or 20ms for 50Hz. With the switch time in less than 1 cycle very few pieces of equipment have problems. Computers PSUs are generally not one of them. Those $10 1200w units from fly-by-night industries might have an issue.

Due to this issue and not knowing for sure I have found a different set I think I'm going to go with, it should give either machine 5+ minutes of run time depending on what's running for me to shut them down or survive through a power blink. They aren't too cost prohibitive but are a bit more pricey a $199 a piece, meaning I'll need two.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102134

The way I've figured it up my main rig (Q9650/GTX480) with both 22" monitors included will need about 1325VA to sustain under load. If my reasoning is right I should pull about 10 minutes of run time out of that thing, but I'm not sure. Still researching. What do you guys think about that one?


For the infrastructure machines I run BOINC on at work I use a batch file that the UPS software runs when the batteries start to get low. Then the load lessens and the batteries lat a bit longer. Then once the power is back another file runs to have BOINC resume.
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