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Boinc's Death Knell?
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GalaxyIce Send message Joined: 13 May 06 Posts: 8927 Credit: 1,361,057 RAC: 0 |
There is of course the possibility that an individual makes known his/her password so that others can crunch on that account in order to, say, gain some advantage in a competition. If hypothetically this were to happen it may hypothetically skew an individual's credits. In other words, their account does not reflect credits earned by themselves but by others. Does this mattter? Does it matter if potentially money was exchanged for such a favour? If the cash was for donations? Not the same as buying or selling an account, but certainly a posibility of how someone might buy some credits. On the other hand this could be totally innocent. Just a friend helping to get a friend's scoresheet up a bit. All-be-it the net effect is still that someone would be holding credit they did not earn by crunching for themselves as all others do. flaming balloons |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Now THAT possibility does exist, I think. I believe the 'weak account key' allows the linking of a computer to a certain account without giving the other party the account password even. If somebody is bent enough on gaining credits that they are willing to pay somebody else to crunch and send them to their account, I guess that would be possible within the Boinc system without any 'cheating'. Not really buying existing credits, but paying somebody else to crunch for you. That's the closest scenario I would acknowledge that could place a 'monetary value' on Seti creds. And no, the kittyman's not buying today...LOL. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Within the payment sub-subject of this basically Boinc thread, what is the view of the Milkyway@Home latest announcement. THAT is what I alluded to in an earlier post. And I strongly believe that it is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I see this as clear abuse and corruption of the Boinc credit system. Ya don't see Seti handing out bonus creds when they have an outage...what a farce for MW to do so. A project should not be allowed to hand out credits like candy in an effort to garner participants or donations. And what I think DA is trying to put a stop to. And I do hope he is or becomes aware of this. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
It would be nice to have something to offer for cash donations, beyond the green star that does NOT negatively impact the project finances. However credit rewards seem a poor option. It degrades the accomplishments that have been earned by deeds(crunching). That should, in my opinion remain a measurement of what your computers HAVE done. People can say "I have made so many widgets this month". Imagine someone that is not paying attention to the boards, and is quietly crunching for milky way. They change something minor in their system right as the bonus points period starts. Wow! they must have done great just look at that RAC shoot up!! A month later the event is over, and they are scrambling disecting their machine to try and find the problem as to why their rac is dropping so much. $400 of hardware, 3 hours to finally find the explanation on the boards, 4 hours cussing... Oh this will be such a great event for the un-aware. Janice |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
To be fair Mark, the main reason behind it is to support a student who is going through a PhD programme, who has been a mainstay of coding for that project. The full statement by Prof. Heidi Newberg deserves reading. Well, Chris....I am NOT 50/50 on this one. Support of 1 student justifies corrupting the Boinc system that has hundreds of thousands of users??? Why is that more noble than the Seti search for life elsewhere in the universe? Man, I gotta clear this with Eric.... I could do one hell of a Seti fundraiser if I could promise a double credit day here for every $5,000.00 raised in donations. WTF....let's go for broke. At the $20,000.00 level, we'll have a triple. And if I can raise $50,000.00 in verified donations, let's slap high fives all around and have a quad credit weekend. Have another new server paid for in no time. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
Still have not heard what they need for a server, or even IF they need a server.. Which makes me guess they are more in need of general funds. Janice |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Still have not heard what they need for a server, or even IF they need a server.. That was not the point of my tongue in cheek post and I think you know that. The point was that if projects are allowed to award whatever they wish to for work done, we can have the value of Boinc credits on any project meaningless in no time flat. And I have been in contact with the powers that be to try to determine what hardware needs currently are. Thank you. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30593 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Why credit is screwed anyway. It is based on a FLOP count, if that is counted accurately, and it is not. But it completely ignores the true amount of work done for a project. It ignores the cost of electricity and the cost of the network connectivity and the cost of the computing box. If you want a fair credit comparison then those factors must be included. It also doesn't reward the right people. If someone runs boxes at work on his account (with permission) the company is supplying the electricity, network connection and cost of the computers, but they are not getting the credit. I wonder is the IRS would want all that countable cash included on the W-2 form for the person getting the credit? |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Why credit is screwed anyway. Credits are a measure of work done, NOT what it cost someone to do it. I have done all my crunching at home and paid for every kilowatt it took to do it. I have no problem with somebody who has permission and runs Seti at no cost to them at work or as part of a business they own. They have still done the work....and that's what the credit system is there to show. Yes, the newcredit system has some anomalies, but for the most part it treats all crunchers equally save for a few glitches. And projects should NOT have the ability to bypass or corrupt it on a whim, wherever their intentions are grounded. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
Blurf Send message Joined: 2 Sep 06 Posts: 8962 Credit: 12,678,685 RAC: 0 |
Questions on MW policies or procedures should be asked on the MW forums. Thank you very much Blurf MW Forum Mod/Project Admin |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Questions on MW policies or procedures should be asked on the MW forums. Blurf....this discussion is not just about what MW is doing, but about Boinc credit granting policies which affect every project under the Boinc umbrella. And what MW chooses to do has an impact on every other project. So please don't try to tell me that discussion about what another project is doing under the Boinc banner is off limits here. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
nemesis Send message Joined: 12 Oct 99 Posts: 1408 Credit: 35,074,350 RAC: 0 |
^^^ what he said ^^^ ditto |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I'm in full support of Mark's view here. It is my personal opinion that what MilkyWay is doing is unjust to the entire BOINC community. If they need help to pay for a student, find another way. If SETI@Home ever did this, I'd pull every computer I have from the project, and I'd do the same for any other project too. I think it is irresponsible and reprehensible. |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
I'm in full support of Mark's view here. It is my personal opinion that what MilkyWay is doing is unjust to the entire BOINC community. If they need help to pay for a student, find another way. Ahhh.... But now I've gored somebody's ox. Because a certain project seems to be running a fundraiser rather than a science project, I've been called inconsiderate for discussing it openly and honestly. If they are embarrassed by the scrutiny, perhaps that underlines why it is wrong. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30593 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Questions on MW policies or procedures should be asked on the MW forums. WRONG-O for things that affect BOINC WIDE. Maybe in the Boinc Fora, but not in the MW fora. |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
OK -- so we have two different sets of issues here. 1) CreditNew -- good or bad. 2) Pay for credit (extra credit for fund drives, etc.). (That's a separate topic). In a sense they are related. It seems to me that the *intent* of CreditNew is to establish a level credit playing field. That isn't a bad intent. But I can see some problems. Some are political/religious (who has control of the credit system and what preferences that person have, further, why that person). That's a political discussion for sure -- and this is certainly the right place for it. The second set of issues with CreditNew -- as I understand it anyway and I certainly may be clueless on this -- is operational. Trying to set credits that are 'balanced' across a vast variety of CPU's, GPU's. user systems, project systems, applications, operating systems, memory, memory speed, etc strikes me as a daunting (and resource heavy) task. I just wonder *if* it can be done reliably and equitably, and then maintained as all those variables are in constant motion. In that regard, it seems to me that BOINC developers *probably* have better things to do with their time. My understanding here (and again I might be off base on this) is that subsequent iterations of the server processes code have made it increasingly difficult for projects to set credits on their own. I understand when NewCredit first showed up, going 'off the NewCredit reservation' was a fairly simple effort. It is possible that this is what bit the Aqua folks with their megacredit problem. I know that at this juncture, Aqua is not issuing new work and reverted their credits to a month ago == while waiting at this point for a working resolution of CreditNew (which they are committed to using) - so at least in that sense, Aqua has been 'damaged' by the new credit system in that in terms of work processing, it has lost a month (not all of which was a new credit problem -- they had two separate events causing problems there). I can see the vantage point of those who want some for of equitable credit -- heck the howls generated when the CreditNew system released megacredits for Aqua were pretty wide spread in the BOINC heavy user community. I just don't see that a working central control system is in place and I don't see why until it is in place, why it is increasingly difficult for projects to circumvent. (I know the easy project solution is 'code freeze' server process code back to 'the good old days'. I tend to cringe at central control, but chaos bothers me as well. |
Aristoteles Doukas Send message Joined: 11 Apr 08 Posts: 1091 Credit: 2,140,913 RAC: 0 |
[quote][quote]As for the credit, it doesn't matter to me BUT what does matter is an individual acting like a dictator! boinc assist science with or without credits at all. |
GalaxyIce Send message Joined: 13 May 06 Posts: 8927 Credit: 1,361,057 RAC: 0 |
I just wonder *if* it can be done reliably and equitably, and then maintained as all those variables are in constant motion. In that regard, it seems to me that BOINC developers *probably* have better things to do with their time. What you say is very useful BarryAZ, I just wanted to comment on this. Whilst resource on 'valueless' credits shouldn't be taking away from more useful development, the fact is that BOINC credit is important to many people. Most important that it is right, set correctly. Without enough resource to ensure credit is fair and correct the BOINC devlopers may find themselves developing for a dwindling set of volunteers. This phrase "have better things to do with their time" must not translate into "it's OK for the credit to be unfair and manipulated by some projects/individuals to their own advantage". flaming balloons |
GalaxyIce Send message Joined: 13 May 06 Posts: 8927 Credit: 1,361,057 RAC: 0 |
As for the credit, it doesn't matter to me BUT what does matter is an individual acting like a dictator! In my opionion it is debateable whether some would assist BOINC science projects, or would assist to a lesser extent, if the credit system were not in place. flaming balloons |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
AFIK people are selling credits now. All they need do is crunch for a while and offer the account for sale. After the cash arrives, send the password and create a new BOINC account and do it all over. The buyer who now has control over the account just gets it merged with his account and the deal is done. I will step forward and state that I am someone who had his BOINC account merged with an older account from the S@H classic days. This was done by an admin. Eric, perhaps? No crocodile tears were involved. When I opened my classic account, the e-mail address I used was a .edu account. Once someone leaves an educational institution, the e-mail account only remains open for something like 6 months to a year, depending on the institution and what you did there. (Student? Faculty?) If you look at my account, if it shows you, you will see "SETI@home classic workunits 2,329 SETI@home classic CPU time 81,529 hours." This did not show up until late 2006 or some time in 2007. I mentioned it to someone, and apparently that someone passed on word to an admin (Eric?) and not long after that, the information showed up, accounts merged. I may have had to state what the earlier e-mail address had been. I'm not sure if I was asked that. Hopefully the discussion about "bad apples" is not including this being done for my account. |
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