Black Holes


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Profile Johnney Guinness
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Message 1127559 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 15:39:53 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2011, 15:52:24 UTC

Ok, i could well be a liar. I could be making this up to draw attention to myself for whatever reason. Sooooo........

Anyone want to play a game with me? This is a scientific game!

The title of this thread is called "Black holes". I'm sure you will all agree that today all of the scientific journals of the world willingly publish academic articles about Black Holes. I think its fair to say Black holes are generally accepted by the scientific community! Science today would tell you there is a black hole in the centre of the Milkyway with roughly 4 million solar Masses.

But this is the SETI science forum, not an academic journal. So in the game, instead of using "references" and "mathematics" like scientists are required to do to get published. Instead lets use plain old "Common Sense" and "Logic".

The book i'm currently translating would say that Black Holes don't exist. It says that the reason scientists think Black Holes exist is because of a mathematical error that exists today in modern science.

So i ask you..... Show me the picture of the black hole! And it can't be some image a guy drew on his computer! The only rules here are that you must use your own "Common Sense" and "Logic".

See guys i'm not asking anyone to simply believe me on blind faith. This is one of the proof's. But i have thousands of examples just like this one. The proof's are mathematical and as i said already, at first, the only ones that will be able to prove i'm correct will be the mathematicians and scientists.

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Message 1127565 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 15:56:39 UTC - in response to Message 1127559.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2011, 15:57:19 UTC

Black holes no not emit any light, so they can't be seen. But matter falling into them emits X-ray radiation which is seen by space observatories. The nearest black hole is Cygnus X-1 which was discovered by the "Uhuru" satellite in 1969. This was the start of X-ray astronomy.Since then many other satellites and space telescopes discovered many other black holes.
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Message 1127572 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 16:13:02 UTC - in response to Message 1127565.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2011, 16:14:04 UTC

Black holes no not emit any light, so they can't be seen.

Tullio

Tullio,
Isn't that just very convenient! Black holes don't emit any light! Dam..... how are we ever going to find one so? Ahhhh.... that means astronomers think they see the influence of black holes because of the "mathematics" they are using!!!.

So Tullio, using logic and common sense and some scientific thinking, you then have to admit that its possible there could be an error in the mathematics!

I might add; X-ray emissions from what astronomers are describing as black holes are NOT proof of the existence of the black hole itself!

John.
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Message 1127577 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 16:21:21 UTC

Here is one:
Black Hole
Tullio

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Message 1127589 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 16:38:16 UTC - in response to Message 1127577.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2011, 16:46:22 UTC

Tullio,
That one is a really good example. Its on the NASA website, its confirmed, its Hugh, and the black hole is gobbling up some poor unsuspecting star that's after falling into it. Its perfect!!!

Here it is;


Lets use common sense to analyse this image. For starters the only reason we can see the black hole is because of the light being emitted from it. And lets be clear again, the light emission is NOT proof of the existence of the black hole itself!

Let me quote from that page;
"More than two months later, and with high-energy X-rays still coming from the spot, astronomers are convinced they're witnessing the destruction of a star as it plunges into the central black hole of a galaxy nearly 4 billion light-years away."

So NASA actually say the astronomers are "convinced" they can see the black hole swallowing the star!! They are convinced!!!! So they could not be wrong....Could they?

Tullio isn't it possible that as the star falls into the so called black hole, E=MxC2 and the matter of the star is all converted to energy and gets emitted back out as X-rays and that's actually what we are seeing in this picture?

Funny thing Tullio, the NASA article neglects to mention exactly how much of the star falls into the black hole and how much energy gets converted to light and X-rays allowing us to see the black hole!

If your a scientific thinking person you have to admit there is a possibility that none of the Stars matter ever actually makes it into the the spot they are calling a black hole! But there is something there that is after destroying the star, we can clearly see this! It does not mean its a black hole with millions of solar masses.

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Message 1127605 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 17:09:40 UTC

The existence of objects so dense that light emitted from them is deflected back by gravitational attraction was put forward by John Michell in 1783 and by P.S.de Laplace in 1796. Their theories were based on the corpuscle theory of light by Newton. Then, with the advent of the wave theory of light, these ideas were forgotten. It was the General Relativity which brought them again to the forefront of science, but astronomers despaired of detecting them. Then the discoveries of rotating neutron stars (pulsars) emitting radio waves caused astronomers like Riccardo Giacconi and Bruno Rossi to search for celestial objects even more dense that neutron stars, from which light could not escape. A theoretical model was made of these collapsed object and when the first X-ray sources were discovered both theory and observational evidenced pointed to the black hole concept. So astronomical phenomena like quasars were soon to be explained with the idea that every spiral galaxy contains a black hole in its center. This is universally accepted today. You may not accept it, but you have to refuse all modern astrophysics.
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Message 1127612 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 17:41:38 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2011, 17:46:06 UTC

Tullio,
I'm sorry you feel that way. Its a shame your unable to open your mind to new science and new information without first having the new information confirmed by the science journals. So like the vast majority of people, you will only understand the new science i will be publishing after the academic science community first confirms my findings. Its pretty much like i said, at first, only the mathematicians and scientists will understand why i'm right. You will believe it when you see organisations like NASA talking about it on their website. It won't be because you understand the information, it will be because you trust NASA, not the information itself.

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Message 1127620 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 18:05:21 UTC

I am only a retired physicist and God has not spoken to me. But I am searching gravitational waves in Einstein@home, crunching data from LHC as a Alpha tester, computing climate models, calculating molecular interactions and, yes, searching for ETs. I have studied relativity and quantum mechanics and published an article in IL Nuovo Cimento using group theory. Sorry not to be understood by you.
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Message 1127627 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 18:30:48 UTC - in response to Message 1127620.

I am only a retired physicist and God has not spoken to me. But I am searching gravitational waves in Einstein@home, crunching data from LHC as a Alpha tester, computing climate models, calculating molecular interactions and, yes, searching for ETs. I have studied relativity and quantum mechanics and published an article in IL Nuovo Cimento using group theory. Sorry not to be understood by you.
Tullio

Then Tullio you have made a valuable contribution to science during your working life. And it also shows that even today you are still making a valuable contribution to many BOINC based scientific projects. Its good Tullio! I also run some of the other projects on my PC.

Science is a massive field and impossible for any one person to fully understand all of science. So i do realise that the exact specifics of black hole physics is a very specialised area of science. Maybe i'm going too deep here for people to understand what i'm suggesting.

John.
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Message 1127628 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 18:40:03 UTC - in response to Message 1127620.

I think Tullio has an inside track on Physics. I pretty much defer to him on the subject. Though I'm still doubtful about dark matter. I think dark matter is more a lack of knowledge of whats happening in interstellar and intergalactic space.

I do like Stephen Hawkings idea that eventually a black hole could be bled off by forming a special radiation which can escape a black hole. leaving nothing behind.
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Message 1127680 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 21:32:44 UTC

There's always the possibility for new ideas.

Rather than all the fluff and fluster and promises of wild claims yet to come:

Please state your claims and the evidence that you have.


We can then make up our own case for whether whatever claims are science, voodoo, or just the frothy remains of Guinness.

Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1127682 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 21:37:19 UTC

Daddio has a new theory that this star is being eaten by Darkions..

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Message 1127707 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 23:12:04 UTC

Guys,
You all got to admit that, at the very least, its kinda exciting having some lunatic like me hanging around here claiming i'm talking to God and he's giving me the Universal book of science. You got to admit, that doesn't happen every day, now does it guys!

At the very least, even if i'm wrong and making the whole thing up, its entertaining everyone and it makes the good old SETI message boards exciting again :)

John.
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Message 1127708 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 23:12:05 UTC

If as its mentioned , there is a black hole at the center of the Galaxy then wouldnt mass spiral inward toward the black hole? IF that is true wouldnt the Galaxy be losing mass and growing inward? from what evidence i have seen the Galaxy is expanding..

Im a believer that the mass of light in the center of the Galaxy is undetermined mass awaiting creation and as the Galaxy expands life will grow from this central point.

if i consider a black hole as a negative energy then the creative centers of a Galaxy would be considered the positive energy.

This is all hypothetical based on we know little if not anything about what lays in the center of our own Galaxy.

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Message 1127713 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 23:19:04 UTC - in response to Message 1127708.

If as its mentioned , there is a black hole at the center of the Galaxy then wouldnt mass spiral inward toward the black hole? IF that is true wouldnt the Galaxy be losing mass and growing inward? from what evidence i have seen the Galaxy is expanding..

Im a believer that the mass of light in the center of the Galaxy is undetermined mass awaiting creation and as the Galaxy expands life will grow from this central point.

if i consider a black hole as a negative energy then the creative centers of a Galaxy would be considered the positive energy.

This is all hypothetical based on we know little if not anything about what lays in the center of our own Galaxy.

Hello Akuma,
Welcome to the SETI message boards. Good to have you with us here!!

You make some good points there Akuma! Theory would suggest that the eventual fate of all the stars in each galaxy would be that they all fall into the black hole and eventually the whole universe would go dark and cold.

But trust me, that's never going to happen!

John.
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Message 1127718 - Posted: 14 Jul 2011, 23:39:21 UTC - in response to Message 1127713.

... But trust me, that's ...

... that's the basis of an unquestioning religion, a 'faith'.


Do we get to see any substance or is this all Irish hyperbole and frothions?

Viral hype for your new book?...


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 1127721 - Posted: 15 Jul 2011, 0:15:57 UTC - in response to Message 1127718.
Last modified: 15 Jul 2011, 0:17:59 UTC

... But trust me, that's ...

... that's the basis of an unquestioning religion, a 'faith'.


Do we get to see any substance or is this all Irish hyperbole and frothions?

Viral hype for your new book?...


Keep searchin',
Martin


Martin,
I just presented you with information, explained in a scientific way, that black holes don't exist. How is that faith? I showed you where a loop-hole might exist in the theory of black holes. Now that's not asking you to do anything on blind faith!! You either accept or the reject the case i put forward that black holes MIGHT be a mathematical error! If your unable to understand why the mathematical error might exist, then that is down to your own level of scientific education.

No Guinness needed, no blarney, i'm just presenting the case that, no matter how unlikely you think it might be, that black holes MIGHT be a mathematical error.

How could anyone be so sure of something like that Martin in the face of thousands of astronomers and cosmologists saying that black holes do exist? How could i be so sure as to make a complete fool of my self here? Why would i state something like that so blatantly? I could only do it if i knew some scientific information that all the other scientists don't know. And i'm saying i know this scientific information because i read it in God's book of science. God told me!

John.
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Message 1127727 - Posted: 15 Jul 2011, 1:24:34 UTC

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Sblkhole.htm

http://www.mpe.mpg.de/ir/GC/index.php

Steve
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Message 1127733 - Posted: 15 Jul 2011, 2:27:37 UTC - in response to Message 1127727.

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Sblkhole.htm

http://www.mpe.mpg.de/ir/GC/index.php

Steve


Oh yeah, we're discussing black holes.
Good links Steve, thanks.


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Message 1127735 - Posted: 15 Jul 2011, 2:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 1127721.

... I showed you where a loop-hole might exist in the theory of black holes. ... You either accept or the reject the case i put forward that black holes MIGHT be a mathematical error! If your unable to understand why the mathematical error might exist, then that is down to your own level of scientific education.

... I could only do it if i knew some scientific information that all the other scientists don't know. And i'm saying i know this scientific information because i read it in God's book of science. God told me!

Ooooooops!

Sorry, I must have blinked and missed your explanation somewhere back there...

As for our present day mathematics to describe a 'black hole', well, simply put our present day mathematics do NOT describe black holes. The present mathematical descriptions suffer from undefined results for such extremes.

Now that doesn't say that black holes do not exist or cannot exist. That's more a comment that we cannot presently accurately describe them. Meanwhile, we can still indirectly observe them and describe their nearby influence.

As for some 'error' in the maths... Well, there are various ways to attempt to solve equations of physics that exhibit impossible roots!


The details of your mathematics will be most interesting... Do tell?


Keep searchin',
Martin

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