Black Holes


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Black Holes

Previous · 1 . . . 6 · 7 · 8 · 9
Author Message
NickProject donor
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 11 Oct 11
Posts: 3979
Credit: 2,034,635
RAC: 982
United Kingdom
Message 1234040 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 13:12:52 UTC - in response to Message 1233978.
Last modified: 20 May 2012, 13:14:51 UTC

In a stadium wave nothing travels--just a ripple of local conditions


Nothing physically travels from one end to the other, but there is movement of individual components that gives that "effect".

Ok now consider the effect of throwing a stone into a lake. There is a ripple effect outwards, water doesn't move at the point where the stone was thrown in, but water does move at the shoreline which could move small pebbles. Has energy travelled?

The water has moved, it's moved by displacement, displaced out equally
from the center where the stone first entered the water.
____________
The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 32092
Credit: 13,773,422
RAC: 25,425
United Kingdom
Message 1234054 - Posted: 20 May 2012, 14:00:17 UTC

The water has moved, it's moved by displacement, displaced out equally
from the center where the stone first entered the water.


I don't see it that way. Near to where the stone was dropped in you will see ripples on the surface of the water, emanating outwards. No water physically moves at that point, but the force of the stone being dropped in, transfers energy though the water in an outward direction by wave motion.

Once that wave energy reaches the shore, at a minimal depth, it transforms into physical movement, manifesting itself into higher water levels on the shore. You can observe this effect on a seaside beach at anytime.

Throw a piece of wood in the water say within 10-15 feet of the shore or so and whether the tide is coming in or out, wave power will usually bring it back to the shore at some point. Throw it out far enough, and even with an incoming tide the piece of wood will stay in its position just bobbing up and down.

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12729
Credit: 7,264,279
RAC: 17,538
United States
Message 1234407 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 5:46:44 UTC - in response to Message 1233978.

In a stadium wave nothing travels--just a ripple of local conditions


Nothing physically travels from one end to the other, but there is movement of individual components that gives that "effect".

Ok now consider the effect of throwing a stone into a lake. There is a ripple effect outwards, water doesn't move at the point where the stone was thrown in, but water does move at the shoreline which could move small pebbles. Has energy travelled?

Of course it moved, that is a tsunami. But if you mean did each individual water molecule travel from the impact point to the shore, no. Try it on a scale where you can observe. Drop a brick into your toilet tank at one end. Does the water move?

____________

Profile William Rothamel
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 2598
Credit: 1,180,227
RAC: 46
United States
Message 1234438 - Posted: 21 May 2012, 9:44:02 UTC - in response to Message 1234038.
Last modified: 21 May 2012, 10:07:24 UTC

The question here then, Will'; is why can electromagnetic radiation escape from
a black hole but not light in the form of electromagnetic radiation though?
..it could be that we're missing something obvious here?



The answer is Hawking radiation. Based on the tenet that information cannot be destroyed. This radiation includes photons and other "particles and bosons".

Hawking has taken a lot of flack for his theory, but he has won a bet or two based on others coming around to his point of view. Since it doesn't make sense it must be a Quantum effect.

Since i am not deeply conversant on the subject I will let you read what you can on the internet or at a library.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/hawking.html

Profile CMPO
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Apr 12
Posts: 57
Credit: 344,990
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1235670 - Posted: 24 May 2012, 3:37:43 UTC - in response to Message 1234438.

Actually I do not think that is completely accurate. The original formulations of Hawking Radiation resulted in the Black Hole Information Paradox (BHIP), and as I understand it the original bet by Hawking proposed the quantum information could be lost. Some years later he conceded the bet and modified his equations in a way that the information that was apparently thought to originally be lost into the black hole could be contained in Hawking Radiation... but I am not sure it was well received. One solution for the BHIP, was apparently resolved by Leanord Susskind’s, Hawkins rival, version of the Holographic Principal... that is my understanding in any case, as it relates to string theory. The Principal allows the information associated with particles that were absorbed into the black hole to be preserved on the surface of the black hole or the event horizon.... leaving the stripped information stored in two dimensions... there are some wild implications with this principal... like the universe being a holographic projection of two dimensional information projected from the cosmic event boundary at the edge of the universe.. But hey that is quantum physics...

http://www.theory.caltech.edu/~preskill/bets.html

Profile ML1
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 8497
Credit: 4,192,951
RAC: 1,760
United Kingdom
Message 1235922 - Posted: 24 May 2012, 14:34:16 UTC - in response to Message 1235670.

Actually I do not think that is completely accurate. The original formulations of Hawking Radiation resulted in the Black Hole Information Paradox (BHIP), and as I understand it the original bet by Hawking proposed the quantum information could be lost. Some years later he conceded the bet and modified his equations in a way that the information that was apparently thought to originally be lost into the black hole could be contained in Hawking Radiation... but I am not sure it was well received. One solution for the BHIP, was apparently resolved by Leanord Susskind’s, Hawkins rival, version of the Holographic Principal... that is my understanding in any case, as it relates to string theory. The Principal allows the information associated with particles that were absorbed into the black hole to be preserved on the surface of the black hole or the event horizon.... leaving the stripped information stored in two dimensions... there are some wild implications with this principal... like the universe being a holographic projection of two dimensional information projected from the cosmic event boundary at the edge of the universe.. But hey that is quantum physics...

http://www.theory.caltech.edu/~preskill/bets.html

Excellent summary.

One interesting example of the wild implications of the Holographic Principal is that quantum computing may well NOT be practical due the information density limit being exceeded by having multiple qubits confined into too small a volume.

Hence, whether or not you can pack multiple qubits together could prove or disprove the theory.


Myself, I am rather skeptical about the claimed quantum superposition states and I suspect there has to be 'hidden parameters' or additional localized dimensions at play...

Keep searchin',
Martin

____________
See new freedom: Mageia4
Linux Voice See & try out your OS Freedom!
The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3)

Previous · 1 . . . 6 · 7 · 8 · 9

Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Black Holes

Copyright © 2014 University of California