So you refuse to change your views regardless of what evidence people like Bobby use to back themselves up. That's the very definition of close-minded.

I guess you'll go to any lengths to hold onto your beliefs, no matter how wrong they are.

You're right, we'll have to agree to disagree, but then the next time I say something you disagree with and you respond to me, remember that you said you were the one who wasn't interested in changing their views.

So you refuse to change your views regardless of what evidence people like Bobby use to back themselves up. That's the very definition of close-minded.

I guess you'll go to any lengths to hold onto your beliefs, no matter how wrong they are.

You're right, we'll have to agree to disagree, but then the next time I say something you disagree with and you respond to me, remember that you said you were the one who wasn't interested in changing their views.

Why should i change my views? Because someone I never met or spoke to told me to? Because he sees things differently than I do? You are implying he is smarter than I am or smarter than the hundreds of thousands or millions of other people who hold the views that 9/11 was an inside job. Has he looked at the physical evidence himself? Done testing on the rubble? Forensic tests? Or are his opinions, much like mine or yours or anyone elses based on watching endless hours of videos and looking at photographs? You are asking me to believe someone who probably has done no physical examination of the attack. I am not saying he is wrong nor am I saying I am right and vice versa.

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

being informed is irrelevant to intelligence. Dumb people can tell the truth without the assumption that their intelligence prevents them from being correct. Seems you've mixed intelligence with being correct. Heck I have a very high IQ. This doesn't prevent me from being wrong or corrected. HEck Ozzfan has corrected me more than I care to think about. This doesn't humiliate me it just informs me and now I can say thinks correctly.

I do applaude people for vivid imaginations but when you start seeing conspiracies when there aren't any and ignore the ones you shouldn't then we have a problem.

BTW the ones you shouldn't are the lies about the no bid contracts with Haliburton and the reasons for the war in Iraq

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Why should i change my views?

Because the evidence compels you to.

Because someone I never met or spoke to told me to?

You've never met Jesus Christ or Albert Einstein or George Washington.

Because he sees things differently than I do?

It isn't about merely seeing things "differently", it's about one's level of understanding of the world around us and if you're able to ask the most pertinent questions.

You are implying he is smarter than I am or smarter than the hundreds of thousands or millions of other people who hold the views that 9/11 was an inside job.

I've implied no such thing.

The "Truther" movement isn't nearly as big as people insist it is. Be lucky if you can number it in the thousands. But lots of people believe things and are dead wrong.

Has he looked at the physical evidence himself? Done testing on the rubble? Forensic tests?

No, but his is based upon those who've done actual testing. Go read the thread and you'll see.

What you've been fed to believe about 9/11 being an inside job was nothing more than a bunch of half-truths.

Or are his opinions, much like mine or yours or anyone elses based on watching endless hours of videos and looking at photographs?

His point of view is based upon real scientists who have really studied the site and analyzed the data, as well as looking at hours of videos and photographs.

You are asking me to believe someone who probably has done no physical examination of the attack. I am not saying he is wrong nor am I saying I am right and vice versa.

You believe most of the Truthers, and the majority of them have done no physical examination of the attack. They just help spread the half-truths.

Go read the thread and most of this would have been covered already.

我认为，如果声称自己是UFO爱好者的人，就必须对自己的言语认真负责，如果你觉得自己发现了什么，请再三验证后再来告诉我们你真的发现了。

严重鄙视那些招摇撞骗的人！！！！！！[/u][/quote][/code]

This proves my point. The very debate here is a prime example of one of the mechanisms used to perpetuate the subterfuge; whoever's way to obfuscate the issue. As long as one of us is nipping at the others heels or me nipping at yours, there will be no consensus, no conclusions as a group because we are manipulated into thinking and forming opinions and judgements as individuals...fragmented. And, in my opion, once again, all part of the plan...keep us divided. That, my friend is indeed how you wage, and win a war whether it be with bombs and bullets or for hearts and minds. To deny that a/the government(s) are so above reproach that they would never contemplate and follow through with such an attempt at secrecy is in my opinion folly. Case in point, how long did it finally take information on the German ENIGMA crypto machine to be made public to the level of what we know of it today....decades. Pretty good "under raps" for a machine made basically of typing keys and geared wheels in a wooden box. So then, logically, one must ponder, to what extents would they go to to conceal any information or device that could possible have an infinitely greater impact on mankind. Furthermore, consider then the unknown troves of information still sealed, and sworn to secrecy for decades to come because of "state concerns" or "in the national interest" or its just too darn embarassing to divulge. In my opionion, you really have no clue to what depths the powers that be will descend to to insure something they feel is so important and revealing will remain out of the public domain.

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This proves my point. The very debate here is a prime example of one of the mechanisms used to perpetuate the subterfuge; whoever's way to obfuscate the issue. As long as one of us is nipping at the others heels or me nipping at yours, there will be no consensus, no conclusions as a group because we are manipulated into thinking and forming opinions and judgements as individuals...fragmented. And, in my opion, once again, all part of the plan...keep us divided. That, my friend is indeed how you wage, and win a war whether it be with bombs and bullets or for hearts and minds. To deny that a/the government(s) are so above reproach that they would never contemplate and follow through with such an attempt at secrecy is in my opinion folly. Case in point, how long did it finally take information on the German ENIGMA crypto machine to be made public to the level of what we know of it today....decades. Pretty good "under raps" for a machine made basically of typing keys and geared wheels in a wooden box. So then, logically, one must ponder, to what extents would they go to to conceal any information or device that could possible have an infinitely greater impact on mankind. Furthermore, consider then the unknown troves of information still sealed, and sworn to secrecy for decades to come because of "state concerns" or "in the national interest" or its just too darn embarassing to divulge. In my opionion, you really have no clue to what depths the powers that be will descend to to insure something they feel is so important and revealing will remain out of the public domain.

Amen to that. Amen.

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

As long as one of us is nipping at the others heels or me nipping at yours, there will be no consensus, no conclusions as a group because we are manipulated into thinking and forming opinions and judgements as individuals...fragmented.

The very basis of mankind is to think differently and check each other's facts. If we all think the same, then there's no way we can think "outside the box" and grow as a species.

And, in my opion, once again, all part of the plan...keep us divided. That, my friend is indeed how you wage, and win a war whether it be with bombs and bullets or for hearts and minds. To deny that a/the government(s) are so above reproach that they would never contemplate and follow through with such an attempt at secrecy is in my opinion folly.

Pure hogwash.

Case in point, how long did it finally take information on the German ENIGMA crypto machine to be made public to the level of what we know of it today....decades. Pretty good "under raps" for a machine made basically of typing keys and geared wheels in a wooden box. So then, logically, one must ponder, to what extents would they go to to conceal any information or device that could possible have an infinitely greater impact on mankind. Furthermore, consider then the unknown troves of information still sealed, and sworn to secrecy for decades to come because of "state concerns" or "in the national interest" or its just too darn embarassing to divulge. In my opionion, you really have no clue to what depths the powers that be will descend to to insure something they feel is so important and revealing will remain out of the public domain.

Sure, governments will try to hide the nastiness that they're up to. Every human tries to hide things when they've done wrong and know it, or feel it is necessary to hide for security purposes.

Still absolute bullshit to think that our government is able to cover up the existence of an entire alien race from the rest of the planet, or to perpetuate something as dastardly as the September 11th attacks.

I'm detecting a slight bit of agitation here...venom rising? Rest easy friend. I'm not here to persuade or dissuade you from whatever you believe but only suggest you take the blinders off and perhaps look at things through a different pair of glasses. The really cool thing is its all your choice. So believe what you will. As far as your reservations concerning anything I've posted, check it out: no "hogwash" or "bull...t". Just remember, saying something is or isn't so doesn't make it fact, but, living with that delusion can be severely detrimental. Also, straight knowledge, smarts if you will, is no substitute for experience and wisdom. The way I see it though,unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of that going around in our world these days.
Then again, if you so choose...carpe diem! I choose otherwise...

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I'm detecting a slight bit of agitation here...venom rising?

Then you're not very perceptive.

Rest easy friend. I'm not here to persuade or dissuade you from whatever you believe but only suggest you take the blinders off and perhaps look at things through a different pair of glasses.

Of course anyone with a different view has "blinders" on. No thanks, but I know I'm on the right side. You may want to take a look in the mirror if you're looking for blinders though.

As far as your reservations concerning anything I've posted, check it out: no "hogwash" or "bull...t".

That remains to be seen.

Just remember, saying something is or isn't so doesn't make it fact,

No, checking the statements for fact makes them fact.

living with that delusion can be severely detrimental.

If only the conspiracy theorists would come to the same conclusion.

Also, straight knowledge, smarts if you will, is no substitute for experience and wisdom.

But you need to have the right skills to make a meaningful interpretation of the experiences you've had. A person can live a lifetime full of experiences, develop a sort of wisdom from that, and still be completely wrong in all their perceptions and understandings.

The way I see it though,unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of that going around in our world these days.

I couldn't have described conspiracy theorists any better myself if I tried.

Just because people believe the government has the power to keep loads of stuff about anything totally secret from the American population, or any government from any population, doesn't make them a "conspiracy theorist" nor does it make someone to be on the "wrong" or "right side."

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

Just because people believe the government has the power to keep loads of stuff about anything totally secret from the American population, or any government from any population, doesn't make them a "conspiracy theorist" nor does it make someone to be on the "wrong" or "right side."

No, it doesn't. What makes someone a conspiracy theorist is their inability to use critical thinking skills to easily determine proper conclusions when putting together facts, combined with their inability to understand deep level topics when faced with complicated scenarios.

Or put more simply: a conspiracy theorist starts with the conclusion and works all their interpretations to support that conclusion, and will go to any length to deny all evidence if it means that get to keep their mindset.

Lets assume that there are UFO's and aliens out there.

Wouldn't the USA government dripfeed the populace over many years with space comics, Area 51, Startrek TV shows etc. When the truth finally emerges they would be conditioned to it.

Remember the war of the Worlds radio broadcast in 1938?

That broadcast was part of an assignment we had in High School. We listened to it and though I was not alive at the time it aired, it was very shocking nonetheless. But you do make a valid point, something I never really thought of. Very interesting indeed.

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

Lets assume that there are UFO's and aliens out there.

Wouldn't the USA government dripfeed the populace over many years with space comics, Area 51, Startrek TV shows etc. When the truth finally emerges they would be conditioned to it.

Remember the war of the Worlds radio broadcast in 1938?

I suppose the government "prepped" us for [edit] the idea of [/edit] cloning too since Michael Keaton's Multiplicity came out about a year and a half before it was announced that they cloned the first sheep.

And they lied to us about having flying cars by now in the Jetsons.

I'm sorry, but the mere idea is insulting to the creative fold that has given us these entertaining stories. To suggest that their creativity is nothing more than a tool used by the government to prepare us for integration with alien beings is not only absurd but preposterous.

Lets assume that there are UFO's and aliens out there.

Wouldn't the USA government dripfeed the populace over many years with space comics, Area 51, Startrek TV shows etc. When the truth finally emerges they would be conditioned to it.

Remember the war of the Worlds radio broadcast in 1938?

I suppose the government "prepped" us for [edit] the idea of [/edit] cloning too since Michael Keaton's Multiplicity came out about a year and a half before it was announced that they cloned the first sheep.

And they lied to us about having flying cars by now in the Jetsons.

I'm sorry, but the mere idea is insulting to the creative fold that has given us these entertaining stories. To suggest that their creativity is nothing more than a tool used by the government to prepare us for integration with alien beings is not only absurd but preposterous.

I don't think he was making that implication in terms of every science fiction book, play, movies etc ever made. Could there have been certain circumstances? Maybe. That radio broadcast was taken very seriously and they made every attempt at the time to make it as real as possible. it was not until after the broadcast did they say it was a hoax.

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

Lets assume that there are UFO's and aliens out there.

Wouldn't the USA government dripfeed the populace over many years with space comics, Area 51, Startrek TV shows etc. When the truth finally emerges they would be conditioned to it.

Remember the war of the Worlds radio broadcast in 1938?

I suppose the government "prepped" us for [edit] the idea of [/edit] cloning too since Michael Keaton's Multiplicity came out about a year and a half before it was announced that they cloned the first sheep.

And they lied to us about having flying cars by now in the Jetsons.

I'm sorry, but the mere idea is insulting to the creative fold that has given us these entertaining stories. To suggest that their creativity is nothing more than a tool used by the government to prepare us for integration with alien beings is not only absurd but preposterous.

I don't think he was making that implication in terms of every science fiction book, play, movies etc ever made. Could there have been certain circumstances? Absolutely. That radio broadcast was taken very seriously and they made every attempt at the time to make it as real as possible. it was not until after the broadcast did they say it was a hoax.

Of course he wasn't suggesting that every science fiction story ever written is part of the conspiracy. I was attempting to make an exaggerated point.

The radio broadcast was taken seriously because it was read in a serious tone and just a "few" people didn't recognize that it was a reading from a book. I certainly doubt Orson Wells was part of the government plot to gauge the reaction of an audience on an alien invasion.

As for a government conspiracy, I think you give them too much credit for being able to get their act together,

As for a government conspiracy, I think you give them too much credit for being able to get their act together,

That's exactly what they want you to think :P ...just had to say it

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

No sir, I give them credit with the notion that they will at least make the attempt. And, they will retry if even partially successful...always firing away until they find the perfect combination. Remember, the primary goal of any state is to do one thing...perpetuate itself, by whatever means they deem necessary. Also consider "in the national interest" always supercedes yours, mine or ours. The State would like you to believe their motives are altruistic but in actuality, the individual isn't even a blip on the radar screen...but, highly expendable.

Chris S: dripfeed...well put. Nice and easy, gentle, or hard and fast, brutal. For myself, I prefer to be lied to in increments...makes me feel I'm still in control...and, if I'm lied to gently and long enough I'll start believing it. These people are always thinking in the long-term.

War Of The Worlds a great example but also consider the education level of the listeners at that time. Many listeners were rural, agrarian... superstitious. I'm not saying they were stupid, not even suggesting...but, easily manipulated. Maybe not a test bed at the time but a darn good reference point on how people think as individuals and collectively. It's always easy to manipulate a group over the individual...God bless good old herd mentality.

As for myself, I'm a true pessimist. I don't believe everything I hear or see at face value and I'm definitely not a paranoid. Nor am I a conspiracy theorist by-and-large but to totally dismiss all alternate possibilities out-of-hand, is in my opionion a dangerous mistake, for an individual or society.

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