Political Thread [4] - CLOSED


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Message 46571 - Posted: 14 Nov 2004, 23:35:55 UTC - in response to Message 46251.

Why doesn't any one on this thread see that? Negotiate a peace agreement, that sticks, and territory being occupied by Israel will be returned. Continue to blow up Israli civilians and the occupation will not end. Every attack on Palestinian territory by the Israli Army was in response to some terrorist attack on Israel.
Dead on the money, Tom! I'd add that nobody seems to have the patience to wait and see if an accord sticks (say about 6mo.) before taking action - Especially when it's the unilateral kind.

...Israel could never return all the conquered territories. It would be extremely foolish of them to return the Golan Heights.
I've wondered why the UN hasn't tried to set up a neutral zone there - That way, nobody's happy.

History is done by persons....
Ojo con lo que decís, ¿eh? History is written by the victor, so it is never "fair and balanced" [rolling eyes].

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Message 46592 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 1:36:21 UTC - in response to Message 46523.

> *An aside*
>
> To Mr. Koenig:
>
> I am beginning to suspect Mr. Pacioli is of the same type of mind-set as
> WordWeaver - though more educated.
> Do you concur?

"That is unfair and somewhat bigoted"...
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Message 46599 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 2:13:40 UTC - in response to Message 46535.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 2:14:46 UTC

> It has been my experience that in many countries a level of anti-semitism
> exists that is not recognised, simply because it is so widespread--it is taken
> for granted as the truth. I think this is the basis for Luca's disbelief in
> my statements.
>
> We are not without such views in the US. There are groups in America who
> spout anti-semitic rhetoric, but a great effort has been made by government,
> courts and many religious organizations to discredit those sentiments as
> racist. WordWeaver's bias is not so much focused outward (on different
> religions being wrong), but in a more perversly efficient way, his bias is
> focused inward (he and his are the only ones who are right). Perhaps the
> resulting prejudice is the same.

I had the same feeling as Luca about that meadle east history web site.
I don't remember who sais that history is always written by the winners
of a war, but it is so true. In order to have a clear picture of the
Palestinian - Israely conflict I would try to avoid a history page written
by an Israeli. And to be honnest I am kind of tired of all these anti-semitic
crap, Actually I don't care about religion and color of skin. It's like hate
crime, that's bullshit. If I am very critical toward Israel it's not because
I hate the jews. Every time someone says something about them it always come
to anti semitic.

It is very hard to find neutral information about the middle east, even
foreigners have choose their side. It is funny that this page quote ;
"No two historians ever agree on what happened, and the damn thing is they
both think they're telling the truth." Harry S. Truman.

It tells you right away that the content of their history is being contradicted
by some readers. Of course no one can contradict historical dates or a map
but little history details can deliberately being "forgot".

Just go into any library and check all the book on the subject. Note all
the authors and editors name and then make a research about them. You will
see that they are all, well in a great majority, Americans, British or
Israeli. Only a few Palestinian intellectual wrote books on the subject
(note that most Palestinian can hardly buy pen and paper anyway) and their
book have often been boycot by the Jewish Lobby.



Luca Pacioli
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Message 46600 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 2:19:37 UTC - in response to Message 46520.

> Well, I'm not Jewish, but neither do I hate them. I try to separate
> propaganda from history, which is very hard to do given that every historian
> has some ingrained point of view. You might look at your own view of history
> and whether you might have some preconcieved ideas that affect your opinions.

I don´t hate jewish either.
The effort to separate propaganda from history is a nice try, but it never finishes. The lesser amount of subjectivity is what we are looking for. I have only said that your history has that little amount on the side of jewish, but there is another way of telling it, in the palestinian side.
H. Richard Utzig: what I have said is a theory very well accepted in History this days. I don´t know how that it makes me looks like a nazi. I don´t want to hurt jewish...as much as I don´t want to hurt anyone else. I don´t want to distinguish them in any way: so, I want to be able to talk of them as I talk about Americans, Frenchs, etc.
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Message 46601 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 2:30:12 UTC - in response to Message 46599.

> I had the same feeling as Luca about that meadle east history web site.
> I don't remember who sais that history is always written by the winners
> of a war, but it is so true. In order to have a clear picture of the
> Palestinian - Israely conflict I would try to avoid a history page written
> by an Israeli. And to be honnest I am kind of tired of all these anti-semitic
> crap, Actually I don't care about religion and color of skin. It's like hate
> crime, that's bullshit. If I am very critical toward Israel it's not because
> I hate the jews. Every time someone says something about them it always come
> to anti semitic.
>
> It is very hard to find neutral information about the middle east, even
> foreigners have choose their side. It is funny that this page quote ;
> "No two historians ever agree on what happened, and the damn thing is they
> both think they're telling the truth." Harry S. Truman.
>
> It tells you right away that the content of their history is being
> contradicted
> by some readers. Of course no one can contradict historical dates or a map
> but little history details can deliberately being "forgot".
>
> Just go into any library and check all the book on the subject. Note all
> the authors and editors name and then make a research about them. You will
> see that they are all, well in a great majority, Americans, British or
> Israeli. Only a few Palestinian intellectual wrote books on the subject
> (note that most Palestinian can hardly buy pen and paper anyway) and their
> book have often been boycot by the Jewish Lobby.

I agree with most of what has been said here.
Only an aclaration: man´s aspect on history´s writing is not to forgot little facts. This view of history as a collection of facts has been abandoned since the beginning of XX century. Nowadays history is understood as a "comprehension" of humans past facts: there is where you can see man´s hand, in the interpretation he gives to different facts.
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Message 46623 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:23:10 UTC - in response to Message 46601.

But that's assuming people learn history in the first place. If history has taught me anything it's that repeating it is inevitable. And no, I passed all my classes with B+, so don't blame me of failing it! :)

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Message 46628 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:34:10 UTC

One more thing - We've hit 349 posts. Time for another thread.

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Message 46725 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 14:23:02 UTC - in response to Message 46600.
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 5:10:45 UTC

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Message 46737 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 15:01:09 UTC

Colin Powell Just resigned!
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