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Message 43608 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 43477.

Does anyone seen a news about a terrorist group (don't know if it was AQ) threatening US for attacks in the coming days ?
It was probably an "unactionable" claim, a false post, or a pissed-off script kiddie. As moody as I am, I've been able to get over the election. Time to move on. :)

And just because one makes correct comparisons to the Nazi's does not mean "Godwin's Law" (another lame construct by pseudo-intellectual geeks) does not invalidate it.
The comparison was made. You equated the forum-posters with fascism and racism, and stating (indirectly, granted) that our opinions not only mirror Nazi ideals, but that we would be applauded by Hitler if he were alive. That's pretty much a blanket accusation.

And while we're on the topic of dead guys...
PS -- can you imagine Carl Sagan, or even John Lennon speaking out against the bigotry & religious psychoses in America today? They would be villified far more than Michael Moore was. Think about it...
Could you suggest someone else to peak out "against the bigotry & religious psychoses in America today" who draws breath? I think we are lacking a Martin Luther King in present America, but who is going to fill the gap?

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Message 43609 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:22:43 UTC - in response to Message 43605.

>> PS -- leaving America was the best thing I ever did,
>> especially leaving the
>> legions of moronic rednecks behind.
>
> Yeah, we'll really miss you...not!

Well at least you admit you're a moronic redneck -- that's the first stage to recovery! ;-)
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Message 43612 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:30:16 UTC - in response to Message 43608.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 17:31:38 UTC

> The comparison was made. You equated the forum-posters with fascism and
> racism, and stating (indirectly, granted) that our opinions not only mirror
> Nazi ideals, but that we would be applauded by Hitler if he were alive.
> That's pretty much a blanket accusation.

hatred & hysteria against gays and minorities and screeching about "family values" --- that sure sounds like what the Hitler gang did! Turning a "terrorist attack" (the burning of the Reichstag in 1933 or 9/11) into a draconian "Dept of Homeland Security" and "you're either with us or against us," not to mention a pre-emptive strike against the Sudetenland/Iraq. Replace angst against all Jews with angst against all Muslims. Can you hear the familiar strains yet?

> lacking a Martin Luther King in present America, but who is going to
> fill the gap?

That's sort of my point --- there's no chance for a MLK to arise in the US today. He would be immediately slammed by the dittohead talk radio dragoons, Scaife-funded goofball corporate media, and undermined by Rove at every turn. What a sad state the US has gotten itself into. MLK would be "spun off" as Al Sharpton, John Lennon would be a "terrorist sympathizer" and "5th column" as has happened to Michael Moore and even the Dixie Chicks and Linda Ronstadt. Hell, most "good Repubs" (i.e. not even the further-right KKK Repubs) STILL hate MLK to this day for being a "nigger commie liberal who cheated on his wife."

I think if Jesus came back and started his "campaign" in Texas he would be on the electric chair within a few years. Hell, today's Repuke party couldn't even handle an Abraham Lincoln ("FREE THE SLAVES -- ARE YOU KIDDING?") or a Richard Nixon ("CREATE AN EPA -- WHAT FOR -- THAT ENVIRONMENTAL CRAP IS ALL LIBERAL LIES!")


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Message 43613 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:33:51 UTC
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 17:37:17 UTC

Very interresting text.

U.S. hegemony: the dynamics of global power

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Message 43616 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:49:32 UTC - in response to Message 43612.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 17:50:08 UTC

Carl Christensen

Your statements are suspect: you have determined that the majority of people who voted last Tuesday were wrong, but you give nothing but insults (you insult me, the voters, the US and the President) to support your "position"; worse, I see no inkling that you have even considered the possiblity that you yourself might be wrong. Why should anyone take your rant seriously when it is so unsupported, slanted and flawed? If John Lennon or Christ or MLK came back and heard you, why would they pay any attention to your irrational screeching? I listened to and often agreed with their rhetoric, yours is empty.
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Message 43617 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:53:56 UTC - in response to Message 43478.

Plenty of misconceptions I had to answer...

> I fully understand John, but the difference is nobody cares who will be
> the next president (or is it prime minister) of Norway because it won't
> change anything in our day to day life.

No argument there...

> We cannot say the same for American election. Almost all decisions taken
> by the US president will influance day to day life of the whole world.
>
> Before bush invaded Irak nobody where beheaded over there. I am not
> accusing american for those barbarian acts, I am just saying facts.

Oops... Beheading were being perpetrated, but by the Iraqi government (Saddam) himself. Since he controlled the media, they were never reported and everyone who was a 'loyal Iraqi' never spoke publicly about it...at least not within the reach of Saddam or the Baath Party. An unfortunate side-effect of the shortsighted policy of the US -NOT- to prosecute Baath Party officials (coupled with the LOOONG time it's taking to rebuild their economy and the fact that hundreds of thousands are without gainful employment) led to the 'insurgents' forming ranks to perpetrate these acts.

Of course, nobody realizes that our export of the 'short attention span' is the prime fuel for this raging inferno of insurgency. Instant gratification (stability) is expected; true social recovery in Iraq will likely take decades, if indeed it ever happens (look at Russia outside of Moscow if you doubt this assessment...is there truly 'democracy' there?)

> As the world super power you have to expect other country to give
> their opinions and preference over one president at the white house
> rather then another one.
>
> As for americans being arrogant, I guess it could be true in some aspect.
> Having the biggest army makes it easy to invades country without even
> listening to other countries advise or concerns. That is what happen with
> Irak. People arround the world never understood the point in doing that
> and it shows that they were right.

Justification (right or wrong) was made that Hussein was monetarily supporting terrorism. Sad fact is that the assesment was correct (to the tune of $25K payments to the family of each and every Palestinian suicide bomber that popped their cork in Israel) and the even sadder fact was that the UN's lack of fortitude was the source of most of this money (Oil for Food was a sham and the investigation of it may very well rock the foundations of the UN leadership that proposed it).

> International aid organisations (action contre la faim, medecin sans
> frontiere, red cross, care, a bridge for Irak, The UN ! etc) have all been
> directly hurts by Bush decision. Beheading, suicide bombers, 100000 innocent
> who died over there, etc are the direct impact of the american president
> unilateral's decision to attack that sovereign coutry.

You're blaming a country for the acts of thugs, much as a gun-control advocate would blame the weapon itself for capital murder and call the criminal a 'victim of circumstance'.

Unfortunately, rules of proper social behavior do not currently apply in Iraq. These people were terrorized by a dictator (also supported by the US for a time) for at least a generation, so they have no reason to trust the US at a base level now. Most want a peaceful existence where they can pursue their lives, but a few 'thugs with guns' want the same absolute power over everyone they were denied under a (sometimes-US-supported) Hussein administration.

These thugs are perpetrating the acts, not 'average Iraqis'. These are the same criminals who will think nothing of bombing [insert your favorite target here] to achieve their goals. They didn't need the US to take action to try and perpetrate their acts; the US action has simply become a focal point of it. The EU should relax a bit, since it has dragged most of the terrorist infrastructure out of their back yard (to 'fight the good fight' against the evil American occupiers).

> I am not accusing americans, don't get me wrong, but if americans don't
> want other countries interract with your own business, just make sure your
> administration acts with respect of others and intelligence.

Make no mistake, the neo-conservative wing of the (US) Republican party that proposed this 'quick, surgical strike' is getting their come-uppance because this police action is dragging the occupation of Iraq out.

> By re-electing bush americans are kind of approuving his unilateral views
> and world policies. And uses of forces just for the benefits of Americans.
> No matter if it's good or bad for others.
>
> How many times The US has opposed his veto at the security concil just
> because it was not good for the US ? The kyoto threaty is a good example.
> The US is the biggest "producers" of pollution and the ozone whole is
> in great parts their fault. Why America has opposed to it ? Because it
> would apparently not be good for the economy.

ALL nations act in their own best interests, not just the US. To say otherwise is to delude one's self...

> If you go to extreme, the world could be dying of war, hunger, pollution
> etc, but as long as it don't touch American economy nobody bother.

On the contrary...look at the explosive growth in the economies of the far East, who are providing service to the Western economies at a far cheaper labor rate. With the shift in wealth, I think you will also see a shift in policy by ALL parties, not just the US.

> I am not Anti american, those who "know" me knows that. It's just that
> it is time for american to understand that being a superpower do not
> just bring advantage, but also big responsability.

Nobless oblige is often an arguable (and some deem it a liberal) attribute. I think you'll find that the middle ground lies in the desire to see everyone achieve self-sufficiency, a little-promoted (at least in Europe) fact that the Bush administration will strongly support, if given a chance...
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Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

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Message 43618 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 17:56:16 UTC - in response to Message 43613.

I count myself fortunate to have been witness to MLK on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.
I was not there- but I was there, there.
I dont believe in todays world such a gathering would be permitted or such a man allowed to rise to the stature required to climb to the mountaintop and tell of it...cc

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Message 43621 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 18:19:32 UTC - in response to Message 43616.

Koenig: you can't friggin' read -- I offered very valid comparisons between the Bush klan and the Nazi's --- racism, xenophobia, bigotry, appeals to "war on terrorism" and "family values" etc. And because you're blind to the reality of the dumbing down and fascist tilting of America, you're whining about me and liberals. Isn't it odd that 11 states felt it was so important to put anti-gay bills on the ballot? Is that an America to be proud of? I can hardly wait when Bush starts appointing ultra-right-wing idealogues on the Supreme Court, then the idiocy of America will be complete. And you assholes let him do it.

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Message 43622 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 18:21:39 UTC - in response to Message 43617.

>These thugs are perpetrating the acts, not 'average Iraqis'. These are the
>same criminals who will think nothing of bombing [insert your favorite target
>here] to achieve their goals.

And it's "average Iraqis" that aren't doing much to go after the thugs & insurgents & kidnappers. I wonder why? Could it be the US botched things so badly that the "average Iraqis" don't really care for either side? Sounds like another Iran in the making -- "great" job!

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Message 43626 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 18:32:54 UTC - in response to Message 43621.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 18:35:17 UTC

> Koenig: you can't friggin' read -- I offered very valid comparisons between
> the Bush klan and the Nazi's --- racism, xenophobia, bigotry, appeals to "war
> on terrorism" and "family values" etc. And because you're blind to the
> reality of the dumbing down and fascist tilting of America, you're whining
> about me and liberals. Isn't it odd that 11 states felt it was so important
> to put anti-gay bills on the ballot? Is that an America to be proud of? I
> can hardly wait when Bush starts appointing ultra-right-wing idealogues on the
> Supreme Court, then the idiocy of America will be complete. And you assholes
> let him do it.
>
>

Calling names and insulting others who do not agree with you is not "valid comparison". Klan with a "K" is an insult pure and simple, and demonstrably untrue (Bush has appointed Hispanics to the bench and he has a black Secretary of State and National Security Advisor (this, since you do not seem to get it, is an example of supporting my argument with facts, not as you so often do, with personal invective). Family values in my mind means morality and support of others, but you think it is a bad thing--what was your family like? You have no right to complain of the "dumbing down" of America as your unsuported screed contains no analysis or facts; it appears you are the one lacking. And this President, like all Presidents, will appoint to the Courts whoever he thinks is appropriate, with the advise and consent of the Senate (a system that works pretty well). Do you just like to hear yourself whine?
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Message 43630 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 18:46:16 UTC

For those who never understood why some says Bush
has oppened a Pendor's box.

Beheadings on the Rise Around the World

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Message 43632 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 18:46:52 UTC - in response to Message 43626.

Just because I find it mildly cathartic to justly lambaste moronic right-wing Americans, doesn't mean my arguments are invalid. Words are softer than the bombs you dopes love to drop on innocent civilians.
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Message 43640 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:10:34 UTC - in response to Message 43609.

> > Yeah, we'll really miss you...not!
>
> Well at least you admit you're a moronic redneck -- that's the first stage to
> recovery! ;-)

You made an incorrect assumption based on a one-liner, which makes you no better than those you criticize. If anything, it lumps you right in there with them...

If you even knew one hundredth of one percent of who I was, you'd realize just how foolish your assumption was.
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Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

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Message 43642 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:18:19 UTC - in response to Message 43622.

> >These thugs are perpetrating the acts, not 'average Iraqis'. These are the
>
> >same criminals who will think nothing of bombing [insert your favorite
> target
> >here] to achieve their goals.
>
> And it's "average Iraqis" that aren't doing much to go after the thugs &
> insurgents & kidnappers. I wonder why? Could it be the US botched things
> so badly that the "average Iraqis" don't really care for either side? Sounds
> like another Iran in the making -- "great" job!

Lose any friends to terrorist acts (perpetrated by radical 'Muslims') lately? If not, then you may not realize that though it was ill-planned, Iraq dragged much of their [criminals] resources to defend their fanatacism over there, rather than in -your- back yard.

That's what some call a "successful failure" in that the war is not really being won, but at least lives are not being lost on US soil. (Being the demagogue you are, you'll likely omit the "successful".)

You may remember that criminal activity was and still is very much rampant in parts of Eastern Europe, where the LAST ethnic struggle is still playing itself out. I'm interested to know if you think intervention was justified there as well...
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Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

Fox Sunday (US) at 9PM ET/PT

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Message 43643 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:18:46 UTC
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 19:23:55 UTC

As others see us, as we see ourselves, the terrorists have suceeded in dividing us.

No amount of money pumped into Homeland Security can protect us from ourselves.
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Message 43645 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:23:44 UTC - in response to Message 43643.

> As others see us, as we see ourselves, the terrorists have suceeded in dividing us.

Many people on BOTH sides of the argument (in the link above) are missing the point that if the terrorists win, peoples' right to argue their point will be suddenly extinguished, probably at the business end of a sword...
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Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

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Message 43646 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:23:55 UTC - in response to Message 43642.

Ah yes John, that old "argument" that "brown people's lives aren't worth as much as white Americans lives" again. No wonder the world is disgusted with the USA. It's really quite a shame, after 9/11 the world rallied around the US --- but the dimwitted RepugliKKKans squandered that good will pretty quick!

>You made an incorrect assumption based on a one-liner, which makes you no >better than those you criticize

oh yeah, gee, because I pointed out your brain-dead hypocrisies and idiocies, that makes me a "terrorist!"



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Message 43647 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:25:10 UTC - in response to Message 43617.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 19:27:48 UTC

> Justification (right or wrong) was made that Hussein was monetarily supporting
> terrorism. Sad fact is that the assesment was correct (to the tune of $25K
> payments to the family of each and every Palestinian suicide bomber that
> popped their cork in Israel) and the even sadder fact was that the UN's lack
> of fortitude was the source of most of this money (Oil for Food was a sham and
> the investigation of it may very well rock the foundations of the UN
> leadership that proposed it).


I thought the justification was WMD ? Maybe you already forgot...
It's true that from WMD to LIBARATION OF IRAK to REBUILDING IRAK
to FIGHTING INSURGENT and cetera it's getting confusing.


> You're blaming a country for the acts of thugs, much as a gun-control advocate
> would blame the weapon itself for capital murder and call the criminal a
> 'victim of circumstance'.


The thugs you are referring to are on their land, they were born there.
They have the "right" to defend what THEY consider to be good for them.
In the current case, The "insurgent" are fighting the US army who ILLIGALY
invade their sovereign country. I would do the same (and you too) if a super
power invade my country one day. All aid organisations present in Irak were
doing their job with success before the US invasion. And now are you saying
that the 100000 victims in Irak were all been killed by those thugs ?
MISCONCEPTION !!! Most of them were victims of US air strikes. What do you
expect when you launch a cruise missile in the middle of a city ? Even if the
target were "presumabaly" terrorist target, don't you think it also kills
innocent ? American just don't want to see the truth, Bush has blood of
thousands of innocent on his hands. ****PERIOD****


> These thugs are perpetrating the acts, not 'average Iraqis'. These are the
> same criminals who will think nothing of bombing [insert your favorite target
> here] to achieve their goals.


lol...Isn't it what your president is currently doing ?


> > The US is the biggest "producers" of pollution and the ozone whole is
> > in great parts their fault. Why America has opposed to it ? Because it
> > would apparently not be good for the economy.
>
> ALL nations act in their own best interests, not just the US. To say otherwise
> is to delude one's self...


Are you saying that the Kyoto treaty was economicaly good for all the countries
who signed it ? Don't you think it will cost Canada some money to respect the
environment ? Those who signed the treaty did it for our futur, for the futur
of our children, for the earth. The US just can't see the point in doing that,
it does not bring any economical benifit, and it does not help in controlling
the world ******PERIOD******

Wheter you like it or not the current American administration is
WRONG WRONG WRONG



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Message 43648 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:25:11 UTC - in response to Message 43645.

> Many people on BOTH sides of the argument (in the link above) are missing the
> point that if the terrorists win, peoples' right to argue their point will be

err, John, Britain HAS faced terrorism before. The answer wasn't indiscriminately bombing & invading Ireland...

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Message 43649 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:27:31 UTC

@ John Croper

Too true, and there are many sides to this coin.

There is a backlash coming.
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