The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction |
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Message boards : Politics : The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction
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The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction | |
| ID: 1062934 · | |
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Oh God... Not this stuff again... | |
| ID: 1062943 · | |
The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction Oh dear... Not that old stupid game of numbers again... I know just the person on these forums who plays that game very well... The measured hard fact of the steadily increasing concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere should alert you to the numbers game. Also the fact that the increase closely follows Mankind's industrial revolution as fuelled by fossil fuels releasing CO2. There's even a corresponding measured drop in O2 in our atmosphere. We are after all talking about thousands of millions of TONs of CO2 being industrially generated by Man each year, and increasing. Our atmosphere is very finite, hence the pollution being ever more noticeable... We aren't going to asphyxiate any time soon. However, we'll have long ago over-cooked our planet before then. It's our only planet... Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3) | |
| ID: 1062954 · | |
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Yes, don't let numbers and facts get in the way of a good fairy tale! | |
| ID: 1062960 · | |
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Okay, I got the time now. Q2 | Q3 | Result No | No | Case 1. No | Yes | Case 2. Yes | No | Case 3. Yes | Yes | Case 4. Case 1: We aren't doing it, and need to study ways to adapt in the off chance we get a change that is net-unfavorable. Other than that, not a problem. This is the classic 'denier' scenario. Case 2: Again, we don't have much of a problem unless a change happens that is net-unfavorable. Then we need to study ways to adapt to it. Perhaps, if we can spare the money for it, maybe we could pursue some ways to mitigate our contribution to the change. Case 3: Not much to do except curse the darkness here. And learn to adapt. Case 4: This is the classic Al Gore (et. al) scenario. We are causing unnatural change, and by definition, it is bad. EVERYBODY PANIC! Okay, these are the four possible scenarios. Looking at these scenarios, and also at past climatic records, it is possible to eliminate three of them right off the bat. Case 1, Case 3, and Case 4 can be eliminated right off the bat. Yes, this includes both the so-called denier position and the Al Gore position. Both bogus and both unsupportable scientifically. Point 4: It is obvious to anyone that has studied the past climate of earth that humanity has had (and is still having) profound effects. There are many ways that humanity alters climate other than the possibility that emitting CO2 might warm things up a bit. Things like deforestation. This has led, for instance to extreme shifts in the climate of entire regions. This eliminates case 1 and case 3. There are huge problems being currently caused by humanity that don't require the fossil-fuel CO2 boogie-man. Point 5: One just cannot lump all possible climate change up into one wad, and call it bad. As I have said, for the last few billion years, ever since there has BEEN a climate here on earth, it has been changing. Well before there even was a hominid, much less a modern human, it has been changing. Well before modern humans had the technology to spew untold tons of CO2 into the atmosphere, it was changing, and then WE had a hand in it. There is nothing special about the climate today, yesterday, last year, or hundreds or thousands of years ago. We have always adapted. About 1000 years ago, there was the Medieval Climate Optimum. The climate in (at least) the Atlantic ocean area in the northern hemisphere changed and became considerably warmer than today. Valuable crops could be grown much further north than previous. New places became able to be inhabited that previously were unable due to frigid arctic climates. I would definitely call this a net good. Of course, it was followed later by what is known as the Little Ice Age. Again, this was before meaningful CO2 had been emitted, though humanity were beginning to make use of fossil fuels. The average temperature dropped several degrees. Crop growing was negatively effected. Habitability of some regions dropped a lot. We are coming off the tail end of the Little Ice Age. The average global temperatures are just NOW beginning to approximate the average over the last 2000 years. Of course we have been warming up. Humanity had precious little to do with either the MCO or the LIA. However, we did adapt. And not all climate changes had bad consequences. So... There went Case 4 as disproved. Leaving only Case 2. Point 6: Case 2: Humanity undoubtedly has at least some small affect on climate change due to our actions, but climate change is not necessarily a bad thing. This is the only logically and scientifically supportable position. Point 7: You have heard much propaganda recently from both the Al Gore camp and their opponents. It is perhaps unfortunate that Al Gore and his ilk decided to frame the subject solely in terms of CO2 emissions. This decision gave much fuel (yes, pun intended) to opponents with vested interests in opposing cuts to CO2 emissions as a 'fix' to the 'problem'. You have heard the propaganda from the Al Gore camp (over and over again) that 'the science on CO2/GHG is settled'. Horse hockey. A scientific claim must be falsifiable in order to even begin the process of being 'settled'. That means repeated, controlled experiments. That is not possible to do with the climate. All they have are dubious computer models of the system based on imperfectly understood processes, some amount of recorded data wherein it is not possible to differentiate between natural change and change due to human/fossil-fuel emitted CO2, and lots of conjecture, educated guesses, and gut feelings. They *think* they are right, but cannot (yet, at this stage) *know* that they are right. What we have from them is opinion, not fact. Now, what do I think? What is my opinion (which carries just as much weight as that of anyone else on the planet)? I DON'T KNOW. Maybe they are right about the CO2 thing, maybe not. However, this whole CO2 fiasco does a good job of obscuring other issues facing humanity. There are other reasons to stop burning fossil fuels for energy. Reasons with reasons both in sound, settled science and in economics. This is why I said it was unfortunate that Al Gore and others decided to frame the debate with the CO2 question. They stirred up the great grandmother of all flame-wars, and consequently not much is getting done. And that is sad. The truth is that it just doesn't matter whether or not the GHG/CO2/climate change thing is true or not. It just doesn't matter. We need to do what we need to do, and this entire debate is just delaying things. ____________ AMD Athlon II X3-450 | |
| ID: 1062990 · | |
In reality, this has been our destiny since globalization became the new way to beat the working class down. ____________ If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied. Kipling, Rudyard | |
| ID: 1062992 · | |
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It is sad so few see the potential economic, and environmental boom that can be had by embracing, developing, and pushing forward renewable energy. | |
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| ID: 1063018 · | |
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another cut and paste troll. | |
| ID: 1063021 · | |
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Perhaps you should run this garbage by the scientists running the CPDN project. you'd be laughed the beaten off of the forums. we have screwed up the atmosphere. Simple plain and deadly. Even their least devastating, predictions show an overall increase of global temperatures of 3-5 degrees by the end of this century. And considering the multitude of data they've ran through its a certainty that things aren't going to cool down any time soon as we've got world leaders that can't see beyond the end of their noses | |
| ID: 1063031 · | |
It is sad so few see the potential economic, and environmental boom that can be had by embracing, developing, and pushing forward renewable energy. So gathering up and concentrating the toxic element lithium for human use would be a good thing? And what happens when someone like you recognizes we are now encroaching on the natural habitat of some sand flee? Insanity: doing the same thing... | |
| ID: 1063034 · | |
It is sad so few see the potential economic, and environmental boom that can be had by embracing, developing, and pushing forward renewable energy. Lithium in batteries does get recycled. And yes to lead away from fossil fuels definately a good thing. ____________ Janice | |
| ID: 1063035 · | |
Okay, I got the time now. Unfortunately, most people haven't, and this topic is not something that can be explained or described in just one or two soundbites... Good comments there, at least for part of the viewpoints... First, the climate is changing. ... The problem with the climate changes being seen now are the very rapid rate of change compared to 'geological' timescales (of thousands of years) that are normally assumed. We are seeing significant climate changes happen over the span of just a few years... And all recently. Hence why we see all manner of weather records that span 200 years or more suddenly all being broken almost each year recently. For steady weather patterns, all the 'record breaking' should only happen early in the record keeping. Is the very rapid rate of change 'unnatural'? Looking at the last few thousand years, it looks so. You have to go back 650 000 years or so to see anything similar... Except back then, we weren't around and there were cataclysmic changes that changed the face of the Earth forever... Climate change may well be beneficial for some areas. For example, I'm sure Canada, Russia, Mongolia and China are all hopeful for that. However, the same climate change will be very disruptive and destructive to the rest of the world. Mass migrations of all life will be forced. Many will die. For example, some areas of China will suffer years of sever flooding to be then followed by continual drought as the glaciers of the Himalayas melt and are then gone. We are already seeing human migration actions now, and that's only due to a very slight shift in rainfall patterns, and that's only for a very small shift in global average temperature... Aside: The "medieval 'little' ice age" was a very minor climate shift only for the northern hemisphere. Even so, some people were moved to sail across their entire known world... People populating the shores of Greenland briefly flourished and then quickly perished. Now, what do I think? What is my opinion (which carries just as much weight as that of anyone else on the planet)? I DON'T KNOW. Maybe they are right about the CO2 thing, maybe not. There's certainly a lot of professional FUD polluting the debate that has also brought in a lot of armchair freaks to confuse things further. The tobacco industry caused confusion and delay for a few decades to delay the inevitable smoking bans. Big Oil and the power industry appear to be doing the same now. Also, politics is a slow moving beast... The question is whether our climate will be polluted faster than the glacial pace of politics can do something to keep our planet and civilisation running. Ooops! Better remind people that by 'glacial pace' I'm meaning very slow, as opposed to some of the rapid melts seen on some glaciers... To my view, there's the far bigger issue that the continued industrial expansion on our planet is unsustainable. The question then becomes how destructive becomes the collapse and crunch... It's our only planet, Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3) | |
| ID: 1063043 · | |
It is sad so few see the potential economic, and environmental boom that can be had by embracing, developing, and pushing forward renewable energy. Quite so. Oil is too valuable yet too cheap, and too polluting to just burn it. There's good development and business opportunities to do things more cleanly. It needn't cost anything more either. What is criminal is that Big Oil and the associated big energy companies are polluting our atmosphere for free, endangering us all for their own advantage... (And no, we can't just turn off the oil supply overnight, but we can do something in a planned expedient way to stop further pollution.) It's our only planet, Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3) | |
| ID: 1063046 · | |
I've introduced numbers here. All I'm getting is touchy-feely back. Then quote some meaningful numbers backed up with hard evidence. Your numbers play the old game of adding up all the carbon on planet earth and then saying we're an infinitesimally small fraction and so of no consequence and so no blame and so lets do 'business as usual'. The real numbers add up to thousands of millions of tons of pollution each year, and increasing. So far, that adds up to over twice what the biosphere and the oceans can absorb. We see the result of that with the increasing concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere and the increasing acidification of our oceans (both readily measured). We make average volcanic output look insignificant! Strange your numbers are from an economist. Paid for by economic giants? It's our only planet, Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3) | |
| ID: 1063047 · | |
Perhaps you should run this garbage by the scientists running the CPDN project. you'd be laughed the beaten off of the forums. we have screwed up the atmosphere. Simple plain and deadly. Even their least devastating, predictions show an overall increase of global temperatures of 3-5 degrees by the end of this century. And considering the multitude of data they've ran through its a certainty that things aren't going to cool down any time soon as we've got world leaders that can't see beyond the end of their noses This is where the Bush-coined "Global Warming" gives a false fuzzy warm feeling... Forced Global Change would be a better description. Unfortunately, there's no easy glib description to explain all the mechanisms that play together that respond to the change in CO2 concentration. Most scenarios have the planet warm very slightly, the weather gets more extreme and ever more erratic until a new stability is found. By then, the climate is very different. Another (less frequent) scenario as a response to global warming is that the weather patterns are tipped over so badly that the earth is plunged into world-wide glaciation... The snowball earth scenario. Not something that can be explained in a soundbite! It's our only planet, Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3) | |
| ID: 1063048 · | |
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Hi Martin, | |
| ID: 1063073 · | |
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Kong, on #2 and #3 I have to say this is simply not correct. The scientific community has confirmed this is (beyond a reasonable doubt) happening. The politicians of course responded with a hissy fit and fought about the results, and continue the fighting. This is because they do not LIKE the scientific findings. It is so much easier to just say "no. Because I said so." | |
| ID: 1063085 · | |
Kong, on #2 and #3 I have to say this is simply not correct. The scientific community has confirmed this is (beyond a reasonable doubt) happening. The politicians of course responded with a hissy fit and fought about the results, and continue the fighting. This is because they do not LIKE the scientific findings. It is so much easier to just say "no. Because I said so." Re: #2, you, soft^spirit, are dead wrong. You have bought the lie, and therefore are part of the problem. The problem I refer to is the enormous waste of debate over the 'CO2 thing'. What we have on the CO2 thing is not settled science. It can't be settled at this time due to a lack of understanding of many of the processes involved. What we DO have is the opinions of many (maybe even most) climate scientists. Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Majority of opinion, however, does NOT equate to 'settled science'. One camp, the 'Goreists', claim it is settled science when it just isn't. The other camp (termed the 'deniers' by the Goreists) uses this to attack the basic premise. All this debate is polarizing ever greater numbers of people into the opposing camps in this wasteful, meaningless debate. Please now, pay attention... There are plenty of reasons to do the exact same dang thing the 'Goreists' advocate. Reasons that do not involve the dubious 'CO2 thing'. Reasons that are grounded in science that *IS* settled, as well as in economics. We need to put the silly debate over the 'CO2 thing' to rest and get on with doing what we NEED to do. The CO2-thing debate is distracting us from the task at hand. OGC (the so-called 'fossil fuels') should no longer be wasted by burning them as fuel. They are just too valuable for other uses. The fighting between the Goreists and the Deniers is religious in overtone, and is becoming worse than the fighting between the Jews and the Moslems in the middle east. Nothing CAN get done as long as this holy war is going on. The crap needs to END. What possible interest do you have in this holy war continuing? ____________ AMD Athlon II X3-450 | |
| ID: 1063094 · | |
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Just like the "birthers" this argument will never end. Smoking is bad for you is not "settled science" either I suppose? | |
| ID: 1063098 · | |
Message boards : Politics : The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction
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