Hardware Donation threads - an alternative solution

Message boards : Number crunching : Hardware Donation threads - an alternative solution
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

AuthorMessage
ded1o1

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 07
Posts: 68
Credit: 10,834,919
RAC: 0
Australia
Message 1040093 - Posted: 9 Oct 2010, 4:08:10 UTC

I laud SETIzen generosity, the donation threads and your donations for new hardware are a genuine effort to help SETI out during the times of crisis caused by their "shoe-string" budget. Its great to see.

However, I hope you are not all throwing good money after bad, perhaps there is a better alternative.

A quick look at SETI's "shoe-string" budget, sorry could only find information for 2006 to 2008.
2006 $538,000 Total, $230,400 for Data Center Operations (the closet), $59,000 for Internet charges alone
2007 $424,500 Total, $242,000 for Data Center Operations (the closet), $65,700 for Internet charges alone
2008 $548,200 Total, $322,000 for Data Center Operations (the closet), $120,000 for Internet charges alone

While I realize this is very likely to make me unpopular with some people around here I feel that it has to be said, thought about and perhaps even discussed.

Myself, I think its time that SETI "came out of the closet" and perhaps considered a off-site web hosting solution provided by a company that specializes in high bandwidth, high availability at low cost. BOINC is ideally suited to being deployed on a wide variety of platforms so the changeover should be quick and easy.

Some of the downsides to the current closet solution are:

  • Long periods of downtime - both scheduled and unscheduled;
  • Frequent air conditioner failures which seem to be damaging the hardware;
  • Not enough bandwidth to cope with the load;
  • No 24/7 server monitoring, fault finding and fault correction to guarantee up-time;
  • No backup power, backup cooling, backup data-links;
  • Too much time wasted on fixing problems and putting out spot fires;
  • Not enough database processing power to distribute/receive work while also "doing science" by combing through the accumulated 10 year backlog.


A company that is dedicated to providing hosting solutions would address all of these issues and would undoubtedly be a lot cheaper to boot.

It would probably cost less per year than is currently budgeted for Internet charges alone!

They would also be so pleased to host a prestigious project like SETI that they would wan't to tell the world. In doing so they would provide invaluable free advertising, this would attract new crunchers and encourage many who left because of the outages to return.

ID: 1040093 · Report as offensive
Profile -= Vyper =-
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 5 Sep 99
Posts: 1652
Credit: 1,065,191,981
RAC: 2,537
Sweden
Message 1040144 - Posted: 9 Oct 2010, 8:50:54 UTC

Holy sh***t!

I noticed the fees for internet charges..
Well!

Our company has a connection to another company here in Sweden.
I think the fee's for a 100/100 connection would lay around 30000$ a year and are situated in a a fireproof bunker with extraordinary uptime and they have their own dieselpower distributor and alot of redundancy fibrepaths in Sweden so if one net fails it's hardly even noticeable.

Two cents for costs.

Kind regards Vyper



_________________________________________________________________________
Addicted to SETI crunching!
Founder of GPU Users Group
ID: 1040144 · Report as offensive
Profile soft^spirit
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 6497
Credit: 34,134,168
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1040156 - Posted: 9 Oct 2010, 10:16:13 UTC

internet connection (2008) was 32,000. 100/100. That has been stable, just congested. 80,000 was to bring gigabyte to the Science Lab. If I recall that ended up taking a couple of more years to actually accomplish. Remember: this is a budget and not a results.

120,000 for system administration. Having been a system admin, all of that could be spent on a single full time system administrator. We have SEVERAL people working (part time of course) for that amount. The collective knowledge of the customized processes used in the Seti lab is staggering if you consider the talent available. While an off campus location might have many advantages, i do not see how it would be possible to even consider moving a project like this to a "hosting" or even an off campus location. Biggest thing not to move it
off campus.. the electricity is incuded.

And there is no way a "hosting solution" would come with a knowledge and understanding of the custom software and interaction between servers. Nice thought, but my opinion is "there ain't no way".

I could see BOINC being spun off as a commercial offering. But that would take a change of landscape away from volunteers as a a result too.

Sorry. Nice thought. But really bad timing to put forth ideas like this while we are trying to get the project the hardware it needs to continue along.


Janice
ID: 1040156 · Report as offensive
Profile -= Vyper =-
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 5 Sep 99
Posts: 1652
Credit: 1,065,191,981
RAC: 2,537
Sweden
Message 1040173 - Posted: 9 Oct 2010, 11:56:43 UTC
Last modified: 9 Oct 2010, 11:59:24 UTC

Yeah but i mean that for instance if the whole facility was moved to a bunker like this where they have people supporting if a hdd fails, machine dies etc 24/7 , extremely ventilated and electricity included..
Perhaps to host the whole seti@home park with hands on 24/7 would perhaps cost slightly below the 100000$ mark / year.
That would leave alot of the fundings to better things so the staff can focus on remotecontrolling their systems and take some salary to keep it running and have cash for spare parts on the shelf incase a SAS drive fails or anything.
I recon that even for that sum of money there would be a dedicated 1000/1000 line to the whole park and if more speed is needed then cash is the only obstacle.

Well well, we can only hope for a better uptime when new servers are in the pipe too..

Our company has a customer which are about to move alot of machines to this place over from the UK because the stability/uptime is incredible he states.

Kind regards Vyper

_________________________________________________________________________
Addicted to SETI crunching!
Founder of GPU Users Group
ID: 1040173 · Report as offensive
ded1o1

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 07
Posts: 68
Credit: 10,834,919
RAC: 0
Australia
Message 1040406 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 2:54:21 UTC - in response to Message 1040173.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2010, 2:57:30 UTC

...Perhaps to host the whole seti@home park with hands on 24/7 would perhaps cost slightly below the 100000$ mark / year...


I was thinking of a hosting organization something like Freehostia, they are located in Fremont, California and have 2.5 Gigs of Internet connectivity, as well as 100% network up-time.

For around $20,000 per year an organization like this would be able to service all of SETI's needs, Web traffic, Databases, Web site, PHP code, Message boards and I'm sure they would be willing to run the rest of the BOINC apps too.

There are a lot of major hosting organizations quite near the SETI lab, they all have massive bandwidth, are highly competitive, use state of the art equipment and are innovative. Since they are practically next door, SETI could save even more bucks on internet traffic by having the tapes (or rather tape images on disk) physically delivered.

This would leave the team there at the SETI lab free to "do the science" and work towards new and improved versions of the SETI and BOINC applications.
Visit http://www.mediafire.com/?yyy64lh5953d7 to download GhostDet v1.05
ID: 1040406 · Report as offensive
OzzFan Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 15691
Credit: 84,761,841
RAC: 28
United States
Message 1040466 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 6:33:31 UTC - in response to Message 1040406.  

The problem is that if SETI moves off-campus, they lose educational status and all funding that goes along with it (what little there is).
ID: 1040466 · Report as offensive
1mp0£173
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 8423
Credit: 356,897
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1040491 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 8:49:27 UTC - in response to Message 1040466.  

The problem is that if SETI moves off-campus, they lose educational status and all funding that goes along with it (what little there is).

... and the other problem is that the "tapes" from Arecibo have to get loaded into the database somehow, and the typical "big hosting company" does not offer office space, only rack space.

So, SETI still needs the same bandwidth, the same offices, plus the added cost of the hosting company.

Proving yet again that it is far easier to move a problem around than it is to actually solve it.

Part of the solution is for people to finally realize that 100% uptime is not a requirement. It's not even particularly important.

But I don't expect to see it in my lifetime -- and I've given up on the forums because everyone has their idea of how the project should be run and what Berkeley should do without ever reading the basic design criteria whitepapers.

Good to see you Ozz.
ID: 1040491 · Report as offensive
ded1o1

Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 07
Posts: 68
Credit: 10,834,919
RAC: 0
Australia
Message 1040667 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 17:08:25 UTC - in response to Message 1040466.  

The problem is that if SETI moves off-campus, they lose educational status and all funding that goes along with it (what little there is).

$o |>0/|/3, you raise a good point here. I agree, moving SETI off-campus would not be a good idea and I would never suggest that. What I am suggesting is using a professional web hosting organization to host the Database, web site etc, paying them to do this would be pretty much the same as paying for internet bandwidth like SETI do now so I don't see how it would effect their educational/funding status.

The goal here is to take some of the load off the SETI team in the Lab there at Berkeley and save them some money so they can concentrate on the science, new development and improvements.

and the other problem is that the "tapes" from Arecibo have to get loaded into the database somehow, and the typical "big hosting company" does not offer office space, only rack space...

1mp0£173, the "tapes" could be delivered to them if the hosting organization is nearby, I'm sure for the fee SETI would be paying they would manage to get them loaded, not sure how office space comes into this.[/i]
Visit http://www.mediafire.com/?yyy64lh5953d7 to download GhostDet v1.05
ID: 1040667 · Report as offensive
Profile Bill Walker
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 4 Sep 99
Posts: 3868
Credit: 2,697,267
RAC: 0
Canada
Message 1040684 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 17:59:00 UTC - in response to Message 1040406.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2010, 17:59:33 UTC


For around $20,000 per year an organization like this would be able to service all of SETI's needs, Web traffic, Databases, Web site, PHP code, Message boards and I'm sure they would be willing to run the rest of the BOINC apps too.


You left out "science" from your lists of "all of SETI's needs". That is done by academics, in an academic facility, with academic funding. Given the sizes of the databases, the databases need to be at the same location as the people using them. I think most or maybe all of the academics are part-timers, with other academic jobs to do, on campus.

People seem to forget that all the IT stuff is only one part of what S@H does.

ID: 1040684 · Report as offensive
kittyman Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Jul 00
Posts: 51468
Credit: 1,018,363,574
RAC: 1,004
United States
Message 1040689 - Posted: 10 Oct 2010, 18:06:04 UTC

Not a bad idea......and thanks for the suggestion.....

BUT.....it has been floated before, and the ship sank.

Something about maintaining the integrity of the scientific process and such.

One has to keep the buns close to one's oven, ya know.


"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

ID: 1040689 · Report as offensive
OzzFan Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 15691
Credit: 84,761,841
RAC: 28
United States
Message 1040954 - Posted: 11 Oct 2010, 5:02:42 UTC - in response to Message 1040491.  

Good to see you Ozz.


Hi Ned! :) I quit posting for much the same reason (and quite a few others), but I somehow keep getting pulled back in. I mostly just lurk, hoping to ween myself off the boards so I can quite entirely.

[/off topic]
ID: 1040954 · Report as offensive
1mp0£173
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 8423
Credit: 356,897
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1041612 - Posted: 13 Oct 2010, 5:04:34 UTC - in response to Message 1040954.  

Good to see you Ozz.


Hi Ned! :) I quit posting for much the same reason (and quite a few others), but I somehow keep getting pulled back in. I mostly just lurk, hoping to ween myself off the boards so I can quite entirely.

[/off topic]

Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

I peek once in a while, just to remind myself why I left.

The answer to "why doesn't SETI just go to a hosting company" is covered in RFC-1925. Which part is left as an exercise to the reader.
ID: 1041612 · Report as offensive
OzzFan Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 15691
Credit: 84,761,841
RAC: 28
United States
Message 1041756 - Posted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:53:50 UTC - in response to Message 1041612.  

Too funny, yet applicable and very truthful.
ID: 1041756 · Report as offensive
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20147
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 1041820 - Posted: 13 Oct 2010, 19:18:55 UTC - in response to Message 1040684.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2010, 19:19:51 UTC


For around $20,000 per year an organization like this would be able to service all of SETI's needs, Web traffic, Databases, Web site, PHP code, Message boards and I'm sure they would be willing to run the rest of the BOINC apps too.


You left out "science" from your lists of "all of SETI's needs". ...

People seem to forget that all the IT stuff is only one part of what S@H does.

Unless you're big enough and benevolent enough as Google, I don't think ANY hosting company would dare touch s@h for only $20,000 per year. That wouldn't even pay for the manpower to just transfer the data across and set up the multiple server accounts and support software... Let alone support all us lot!!!


Hopefully some real and new machines rather than abused testbed hand-me-downs will free Berkeley up from hardware recovery to allow them to get back oncemore to development and science.

There's a lot of bits and bytes to s@h!

Keep searchin',
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1041820 · Report as offensive
Profile Pappa
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Jan 00
Posts: 2562
Credit: 12,301,681
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1041870 - Posted: 13 Oct 2010, 21:32:48 UTC

Ned, Ozz

Nice to see you again... It is also nice that you brought up RFC 1925.

For those that have never had a read any RFC's (Request for Comments) They sometimes can be dry (unless you have a fairly extensive understanding of the language used and have been in the industry for a while). RFC 1925 was written more the the layman rather than the Engineer. Google is your friend...

Regards


Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

ID: 1041870 · Report as offensive
Profile Donald L. Johnson
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 5 Aug 02
Posts: 8240
Credit: 14,654,533
RAC: 20
United States
Message 1041892 - Posted: 13 Oct 2010, 23:02:53 UTC - in response to Message 1041612.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2010, 23:03:20 UTC



The answer to "why doesn't SETI just go to a hosting company" is covered in RFC-1925. Which part is left as an exercise to the reader.


All of the above? (8{)
Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired
ID: 1041892 · Report as offensive
1mp0£173
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 8423
Credit: 356,897
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1041972 - Posted: 14 Oct 2010, 5:49:05 UTC - in response to Message 1041870.  

Hey Pappa.....

I would have linked to http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1925.txt instead of the one at faqs.org.

Why?

The contents of the RFC, once adopted, are not subject to revision, and faqs.org is not the forum to suggest revisions.

... and like the SETI forums, many, many of those who comment are simply not aware of all of the facts (like the fact that the RFCs are the "standards documents" for the internet -- mostly) and not aware of the processes.

But, once you let people comment, they will. Frequently to their detriment.

The world was a better place before the passing of Jon Postel. He was the RFC-editor, and RFC-editor is definitive.
ID: 1041972 · Report as offensive
Profile Pappa
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Jan 00
Posts: 2562
Credit: 12,301,681
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1041992 - Posted: 14 Oct 2010, 7:13:58 UTC - in response to Message 1041972.  

Actually I Love this

To steal the phrase the King is Dead, Long live the King!

Jon is dead, Long Live Jon! Few here can realize the impact they take for granted.

I picked the least offensive (readable)... As I know what you just stated is that once an RFC is accepted. It takes new evidense to overide a mistook that might have gotten through. Jon prevnted the mistook in the first place

The hard part is as many users act on incomplete information, this is a very good example. So as you and others all know. I will let the "cat out of the bag" (pardon the cliche). RFC 1925 is a part of a scheme that very knowledgable people attempt to play jokes on their "peers." Some of it you have to be at their level to understand the true nature of the joke. RFC 1925 is something that the majority of people can understand. Thus, a better link might be
April Fools' Day RFC. Only then might some realize that some very powerful people do have a sense of humor. RFC 1925 transends "NERD."

So with all that. I will close with I know that we have people here at Seti within the same class as Jon. They do have a sense of humor and allow for many things said. I respect them. They have spent a lot of time attempting to explain things (networking/other).

Thank You for you Time and efforts.

Regards

Hey Pappa.....

I would have linked to http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1925.txt instead of the one at faqs.org.

Why?

The contents of the RFC, once adopted, are not subject to revision, and faqs.org is not the forum to suggest revisions.

... and like the SETI forums, many, many of those who comment are simply not aware of all of the facts (like the fact that the RFCs are the "standards documents" for the internet -- mostly) and not aware of the processes.

But, once you let people comment, they will. Frequently to their detriment.

The world was a better place before the passing of Jon Postel. He was the RFC-editor, and RFC-editor is definitive.


Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

ID: 1041992 · Report as offensive
1mp0£173
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 8423
Credit: 356,897
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1042163 - Posted: 14 Oct 2010, 23:19:24 UTC - in response to Message 1041992.  

I will let the "cat out of the bag" (pardon the cliche). RFC 1925 is a part of a scheme that very knowledgable people attempt to play jokes on their "peers." Some of it you have to be at their level to understand the true nature of the joke. RFC 1925 is something that the majority of people can understand.

Somehow, I've never thought of RFC-1925 as a true "April Fool's" RFC.

It certainly isn't in the same class as "IP over Avian Carriers with Quality of Service" (RFC-2549) or "TCP Option to Denote Packet Mood" (RFC-5841).

The truths, while funny, are funny because they are so very true.
ID: 1042163 · Report as offensive

Message boards : Number crunching : Hardware Donation threads - an alternative solution


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.